Feedback on post deletion and 7 cups site structure in relation to mental health and integration
@MistyMagic, @GlenM, @neonblueberry1843, @Coco08061969, @lightIdea2663
This post was deleted from the "deleted thread" thread and @MistyMagic suggested placing it within the "feedback" thread. I have followed your guidance. Thank you for the suggestion.
Here is the "feedback" in its entirety. (Posted originally as a response to a Diary entry being deleted.) Quoted in its entirety:
"Your deletion of my diary entry confirms my nagging feeling of what is wrong with the primary division between Listeners and Members in the organization of 7 cups. @GlenM. Additionally, I would like to thank @neonBlueberry1843 @Coco08061969 for coming to my defense when I posted my diary entry and @lightIdea2663 wrote an unsupportive line. Now, in reading more about the development of 7 cups as a nonprofit business by Glen Moriarty as a startup in Silicon Valley mostly to support entrepreneurs who may also be seeking ways to balance their anxiety and depression and have a place to find information on work life balance, due to Glen M's Psy D background and desire to "help" others (from his clinical background) I have finally hit on what it is that I find disturbing about the 7 cups's division between Listeners and Members. So, thank you for that.
"In short, the goal of most therapies is for a person to achieve "integration" and "balance" and also be able to function in society. Glen and the other investors took on a lofty goal, which was to create a world wide platform where people could get and give support to each other. The premise is the "therapeutic model" and I won't go into that in great detail but I will explain why I don't believe it leads to integration of personality for just a minute.
"The reason I joined 7 cups was complicated. However, the part of 7 cups I was attracted to was the Sharing Circle, where everyone is more or less 'equal' and everyone's 'voice' can be heard. This model is based on Councils of Indigenous People, where persons would sit in a circle and pass a 'talking stick' around the circle. Each person would have the chance to talk whilst they held the talking stick. In this way, each voice of the community was given equal weight. The Sharing Circles, which I was supporting as a Room Supporter and as a Host, were formed on this premise. Glen and others who formed this didn't know that, perhaps because they are younger than me, or less interested in the historical roots of such things, they put in the original introduction to Sharing Circles that it was based on the Overeaters Anonymous or Alcoholics Anonymous (which, by the way, have mixed reviews as to effectiveness) rather than the ancient historical roots of Councils run by Indigenous Peoples (I can insert references here, but this is just an overview of my thoughts so I will save that.) This desire for a 'therapeutic' atmosphere, coupled with the desire to help entrepreneurs, was, from what I can gather, the motivation to establish 7 cups.
"However, there is a flaw with the argument that the therapist "knows" more than the one seeking therapy. Also, there is a fatal flaw when a person (one human) is differentiated or split into essentially two personalities: 1) the member: distressed, perhaps seeking help and 2) the listener: the helper, the one who delivers help.
"This division also has ancient roots. It also has been the cause of many problems, one of the chief being the ability for a human individual to achieve integration or 'enlightenment,' the 7th 'cup' within the poem Glen cites as one of the bases of forming 7 cups.
"My personal experience on both sides, being a Member and also a Listener, is that the more involved I became as a Listener, the more mechanistic and robotic my acceptable responses became. For example, pat phrases like: Thank you for sharing, One day at a time, and I am walking with you, became common. The real personality of the Listener is diminished. Listeners, as per the guidelines you state above, are to be 'lighthearted' and 'joyous.' Nowhere did I see it stated that they must be mechanistic and robotic and turn off our critical thinking skills. Yet, this seems to be what is encouraged. The false dichotomy between the therapist/Listener who knows better and the patient/Member who is seeking help. This is even evident in the giving of certain 'privileges' to Listeners, such as a special room where Listeners can support each other in their 'journey' and other perks, such as my perk as a Room Supporter to be able to post a banner on the room I am supporting.
"These are just the thoughts off the top of my head early on a Saturday morning. I still think 7 cups is the best little shop in the town, and how my little note of intelligent dissent (not so much for the removal of the thread as much as for the 'public shaming' by posting on a 'deletion forum' and also the pointing to 'educational resources' for me when it is me who was targeted by someone who chose to spew their hatred. I still plan on staying with 7 cups after a self care break. Perhaps someone will respond to my message. I do believe you have ways to contact me. There is an email associated with my account where I can receive messages. (I am interested in startups myself as I am running my own consulting business and have progeny, one who already has three patents and the other who is doing some ground breaking research on pain, along with being naturally intelligent and educated and about twice to three times the age of most people on here and therefore perhaps possessing of some historical reservoir of privilege as a 'brain trust.')
"Carry on! Be yourself! I certainly will continue to be myself."
I have copied my original statement in its entirety with the exception that since I'm quoting myself, a statement I placed in the "communicating forum" deletions thread, and transposing it to another location within the platform, I put my statement in quotes.
I wonder if anyone will even take the time to read this. I await your response with bemused curiosity while I wait to watch the third place match between Morocco and Croatia (Men's World Cup Soccer).
@MistyMagic, @GlenM, @neonblueberry1843, @Coco08061969, @lightIdea2663
I will add for clarification that it was me who proposed removing the diary entry.
@MistyMagic removed only the small negative reaction to my diary thread and my response to that reaction including the fact that I plan to publish my story and am dissuaded from writing it here "for free." (I would rather collect royalties on my story if I have to tolerate harassment.)
@CalmRosebud I'm experiencing censorship issues trying to reply, so I'll try it one paragraph at a time.
I agree that the wording informing you of the deletion was insensitive and amounted to public shaming, when you had been the victim of some kind of weird personal attack. I think you deserve an apology for the way it was handled.
Charlie
I also agree with you that the primary division between listeners and members at 7 Cups is unhelpful. The idea seems to be to encourage listeners to be inauthentic, even robotic, as you correctly say, even though this goes against what has been considered best practice in professional helping relationships for at least half a century.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie We agree on this point. However, the "entry mechanism" into 7 cups delineates these roles straight away.
@RarelyCharlie I wonder if there's a way to have everyone enter as a "member" but "progress" to a certain point when they can apply to be a "listener." Just a thought that would keep the integration piece present. I could give but also receive support but be the same person!
I noticed that "on boarding" to be a counselor on other sites, not mentioning names but most of them are crisis sites, is very intense, ie., 30 hours of training, mock chats/pairing with skilled therapist, then mandatory number of hours volunteering. It's intense, but then, crisis is intense, and it's proper that the training be thorough. Background checks also, which in my opinion is very important for a crisis site.
But this is not a crisis site. It's a support site. And I think this site delivers very good and comprehensive support. I wanted to throw some big love on this thread, because everyone here has treated my words with respect and I appreciate that so much. I have big love for 7 cups and all the possibilities. I read testimony about this every day from many different people. I appreciate all of you. Thank you.
@CalmRosebud That would certainly be possible in a technical sense. But I think the "disintegrated" member-listener structure is an example of Chesterton's fence. It must have served a purpose. Has its purpose gone away?
Charlie
I thought of a poem you might like, since you mentioned Chesterton’s Fence, and you seem to like poetry. The quote, “Good fences make good neighbors” is in the poem, but I don’t think most people have read the whole poem. In it, the poet, Robert Frost, is actually questioning the quote. I think you might like it.
To nitpick, I was surprised at the suggestion that 7 Cups was "mostly to support entrepreneurs". Accounts of 7 Cups' early development are somewhat in conflict, but I have never seen that particular suggestion before. For example, it's not mentioned in this account.
I was also surprised at "as a nonprofit business". 7 Cups of Tea Co was not originally registered as a nonprofit and I'm not aware that it has changed its registration status. I once checked the company registration records, although I don't have a link to hand. There is a separate nonprofit 7 Cups Foundation that I think is currently dormant.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie Yes, to answer this I will pull a few links to articles about the early formation of 7 cups. I researched it because the Member/Listener dichotomy was always a puzzle to me and I thought that by researching I might be able to uncover some of the initial motivations.
Please keep in mind, I only stumbled across 7 cups two years ago. When I say stumbled, I mean, someone told me about it. I didn't research on the internet. No, I trusted a fellow person who gave me a tip. And I landed on 7 cups. And landed in a Sharing Circle. And it was all downhill (or uphill) from there. I published my first book. Yay, me. I found, on my own, a Writing Support Group. Many improvements were made.
I "give back" to 7 cups by being a Room Supporter and Hosting Sharing Circles. I am currently on self care break.
@RarelyCharlie So, regarding this particular point, I will find the source of my thought that this was a start up. I think it's mentioned in the link you sent as well.
and here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6161958
Those are just a few. I would really have to search and pick through to find the exact place I saw the reference to entrepreneurs. Perhaps it was a misunderstanding on my part! This is a distinct possibility!
In the original poem the 6th cup was fatal. The 7th cup was never drunk because the poet's soul had floated away to a paradise island. Many translations are inauthentic in this regard, presumably to avoid promoting the substance abuse aspect of this ancient tale.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie Perhaps we are thinking of different poems, or a different interpretation of the same poem.
7 cups of tea by Lu Tong (795-835CE)
The first cup kisses away my thirst
and my loneliness is quelled by the second.
The third gives insight worthy of ancient scrolls,
and the fourth exiles my troubles.
My body comes lighter with the fifth,
and the sixth sends word from immortals.
But the seventh -- oh, the seventh cup --
if I drink you, a wind will hurry my wings
toward the sacred island.
Translated by Christopher Nelson
I have seen other translations where the lines are presented in quite a different way. For example, here's a version I found online:
This version is from Buddha Grove. I don't like it as much.
https://blog.buddhagroove.com/zen-poetry-7-cups-of-tea/
@CalmRosebud That's an excerpt from the original poem, and the translation is sanitized. Almost all references to the poem are like this.
For a complete, and more accurate, translation that also explains the historical context, see: Lu T’ung and the “Song of Tea”:
The sixth bowl makes me one with the immortal, feathered spirits. [that is, deceased]
The seventh bowl I need not drink…
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie Gotcha. Thanks for that original source. I will share with a friend who can translate for me. Perhaps there are several interpretations. I have not thought about it as long as you have. I have always liked the number seven for some inexplicable reason. I think it was one of the things that drew me to 7 cups, the number 7. Apparently, I am not alone, and perhaps this resonance was just destiny.
Charlie, I have read more carefully through the source you pointed out to me. And a second time. And a third time. Still see some ambiguity there, but that’s me and I am not a scholar of ancient Chinese. I can see why this poem might be an inspiration, and perhaps part of that is the ambiguity in interpretation.
Fourth reading, and here’s a question to ponder: how could the poet have written the poem in first person if 6th cup meant he died? Still seems to me like he achieved enlightenment and then didn’t have 7th cup because he was soaring around because somehow he wrote the poem in first person after the fact. Just a point to ponder.
Also, the historical significance of tea and the story of the poet’s life are quite compelling. I see some parallels with some of the major religious stories there though, caveat, I am no scholar in that area.
Final point of significant parallel is the idea that when someone is remembered, they don’t truly die. Their spirit or soul lives on. That’s why some religions have rituals “remembering “ someone who has died, memorials if you will. It was an interesting parallel to me.
No doubt, I will read this passage more, but again I thank you for pointing me towards it.
@RarelyCharlie Great source for interpretation of this poem! I also understood the 7th cup as attaining enlightenment, as from the passage the poet was able to see that the division between the opulent tea and the riches needed to bring it to him as versus the life of the peasants who actually grew the tea, was an unfair division --- he achieved a state of "enlightenment" or a state of wholeness and oneness. The "danger" of seeing this oneness is emphasized. It's "dangerous" to be enlightened. Then, he came back to earth and wrote the poem. (Caveat: I am not a Chinese language scholar, just a reader who reads.)
Hiya Charlie, just stumbled across this link that suggests the interpretation of enlightenment, FY entertainment. https://archive.globalteahut.org/docs/pdf_articles/2014-10/2014-10-a022.pdf
@RarelyCharlie It makes sense that people translating would not want to promote substance abuse. I come from a long line of translators. It was a topic of conversation in our house, how things were translated from one language to another. I'm not saying the languages only because of privacy but suffice it to say, one of my parents wrote a language textbook that is sadly no longer in print, and another one was a polyglot, who studied Chinese "for fun" and who, at the time of death, had command over at least 26 languages.
I was also surprised at "the best little shop in the town" and I wonder about the basis for that comparison. Even in its heyday 7 Cups was never top of the comparison websites' lists that I saw, and these days I don't think it makes the top ten.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie So, "best little shop in town" is my expression based on my finding 7 cups (1) and also seeing a website saying it was the "best in teen counseling/chat" somewhere, I have to find the link. Also, I've invested two years and many hours into 7 cups so to me "the best" also has familiarity. Other places, I will not name names, are less personal, less friendly, in my humble opinion. It's the "best shop" for me.
@CalmRosebud Well, of course, I am still here too, so it's currently the best shop for me as well 😜
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie "Best for teens" source: https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/online-therapist-for-free#A-quick-look-at-the-best-free-and-affordable-online-therapy-services
@CalmRosebud Seems a little odd as the therapy option on site is only for adults!
7 Cups does not allow personal contact information like emaíl addresses within the community. Your emaíl address is only used for administrative purposes and to log in. So it would be unusual for anyone to contact you by emaíl in response to a thread in the forum.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie Hi, I appreciate your breaking your response into chunks, and I will reply accordingly.
No, your implication here is that nothing should have been done, and I beg to differ. I think the small post was handled in the way it should have been. I did respond to the harassment directly, and not in a very professional manner. I was at fault. However, I think the deletion could have been handled by 1:1 messaging rather than through a separate thread "communicating post deletions." Simple solution to a simple problem. Misty Magic was only doing what they were told to do; report unhelpful content and deal with it, by deleting, and then communicating the deletion. Misty Magic's touch was actually much more human than some websites I have seen, that just put an impersonal, clearly canned, statement for deletions, something along the lines of "content moderation has determined that this content needed to be removed, blah, blah, blah."
@CalmRosebud Oh, I'm sorry, I did not intend any implication that nothing should have been done. I flagged the (very) small post to ask for it to be deleted.
I flagged the thread because, according to the rules, that kind of thread must be posted from a member account. I think that rule is unhelpful, but I support the rules as they are, not as I might like them to be. Anyway, this flag was ignored. It was only when I flagged the (very) small post that action was taken.
Of course, I might not have been the only person flagging these posts.
Charlie
I read your response more carefully. The difference for me is that I wasn’t seeking support. It’s my story. You can’t change that. As my story, though, I have a right whether to share it or not. You can create conditions of trust that make it more likely I will share it, but in the most general terms, they are my memories. Now I understand better your flagging, because yes, it was personal. But no, I was not looking for support. It’s the world that has supported me and allowed me to survive, thrive, and even be happy. In spite of, but who knows, perhaps also because of my story.
@CalmRosebud You're right. And you did state that explicitly: "I thought it would be a good thing to share my story, because maybe it will help someone know they are not alone." However, writing "Please don't comment unless it's something supportive…" seemed to me, at the time, to make it ambiguous.
Charlie
Sorry for the ambiguity. I meant— Please do not comment unless it is something supportive as what I share is deeply personal. Oops, seems I said exactly what I wanted, which is no comments unless a person could think of something supportive to say, therefore clearly stating, or “modeling” my boundaries. For those who have trouble with that.
I’m trying to get over my annoyance that you thought me willingly sharing my trauma, a big brave step for me, was over sharing. I wonder if that implies that listeners have achieved some pinnacle of development where they are no longer allowed to model recovery. You also referred to censorship. While I agree that people should not be brought down by reading posts here, for some people, stories of recovery are incredibly powerful. Finally, I asked to have my post removed, and yet you referred to it. The post and its contents didn’t go away. They still exist, are a part of me, and they inform my listening journey and ability to empathize with others who have suffered and are recovering.
Happy New Year! I will let you know when I publish my book, a promise I made to myself but which is a work in progress.
@CalmRosebud
I very much agree with what @RarelyCharlie says above.
I initially thought the Forum Deletions thread could be a good idea, but I was once tagged into it and the notifications are persistent, I understand the term of public shaming, it is on display for all to see, maybe an inbox message would be more useful maybe.
@iCareUK
As listeners, we are always told to respect the privacy and confidentiality of members, and in terms of Forum Deletions, this should remain the case whether someone is a member or a listener, and this should not be publicly addressed.
I understand also regarding the robotic effect, I have taken a number of roles, but I will not allow myself to become robotic, I speak to people as human beings, in the same way I'd sit with a friend who came around after hearing bad news, there is no need for it to be any less, or any more.
@iCareUK I'm glad to hear that's the case with you. My experience with bureaucracies and "professionalism" is that the human touch can easily be lost if the script is too stiff. I can point to some movies that emphasize this message, but I can also say that was my personal experience, but again, the train towards burnout sometimes chugs along at a rate we personally cannot predict. So, perhaps, I was heading towards burnout without recognizing the signs. When I recognized the signs (good for me), I told the relevant parties that I would be taking a self-care break early. I didn't engage in any hurtful behavior. I protected myself.
@iCareUK I agree with the idea of the inbox message. I agree I was rude in my response to the unhelpful comment. I'm no angel. I am a human not a bot. I felt I could share personal information (my story), and honestly, that was a lapse in judgement on my part and my reaction to the simple message surprised even me. I am sorry actually. And glad that was taken down. And glad to be lectured, just not in public.
@CalmRosebud
You raise very good points, I am glad you noticed signs, because as you say, we can easily be travelling full steam ahead to burnout, and we need to ensure this doesn't happen.
I often get confused why a member becomes a listener, they are given basic training but are then expected to be working at "Professional" standards, I have even some posts here speaking of spelling and grammar, I am personally not too bad at spelling, but grammar is an issue for me, even now, but when you allow literally anybody to become a listener, you have to be prepared for a huge range of different types of people with a huge range of different backgrounds and abilities, some people cannot be "trained" to be a certain way, they may have physical, mental or learning issues that prevents this.
In this same way, the standard should be the same throughout, and I am really not liking the publicity of knowing that @???'s post was removed because it was graphic and racist (Example), because this makes people feel isolated, whilst fully open to lecture, criticism and abuse.
Even if you were rude, I think it is justifiable to be honest, but yes, I don't like the public idea, I was once asked to complete a training session on the forums, which was a no-go situation, for that very reason, it's too open and public, and I'm not an open and public person.
@iCareUK The reason that you are getting persistent notifications is because when a person posts in a thread, that action automatically adds the person to the notify/tag list every time another post is added. You can untag yourself by going to the original post and clicking on the tag button which is bottom left of that post.
Listening - One Step At A Time!
@CalmRosebud
Thank you so much for sharing this. I read every bit of it, and I really want to thank you for voicing this out loud. At 7 Cups, I've noticed the huge differentiation between listeners and members, too, and I'm so happy someone has finally addressed it. While I understand the importance of listeners being professional, I completely understand why some listeners would feel like their right to be lighthearted and talk about their own problems was taken away by the regulations. It perpetuates the myth that listeners have no problems and just simply exist to help others. I see both sides of the argument - I get that the role of listeners is to listen and help and if they talk about their own problems from their listener account, it'll seem like they are all sad too which can discourage members, but limiting what they say to only positive and supportive stuff can also make them seem estranged to the members at the same time. Sometimes the best thing you can do for someone is to get on their level and tell them you get it. Sometimes enforcing positivity can be toxic in excess, and the best thing a listener can do for a member is to show their sad side, too, so that the member can see they aren't alone and that their listener is a person with problems just like them. Overall though, just thank you for posting this. I'm so proud of you for it and grateful that you did. Wishing you the best!
@BlueSkies1021 The part that scared me was that I asked to have my original post then down. I wanted to share it, initially, but my trust was shot. Trust is a tricky thing. Websites make it harder. Online free websites attract all sorts. When will I finally learn that? Maybe that's the lesson for me. Be cautious. Proceed cautiously. Protect myself.
@CalmRosebud
I completely understand why that would be scary. I've had a post torn down, too because I "sought support from a listener account and should have just switched to my member account to post it", but the truth is online trust is definitely difficult. I decided to just let the situation go, but it would be totally valid for someone to feel discouraged and silenced by something like this and I would get that, too. Listeners deserve to show that they're human beings to members too, and honestly in some cases that would even be better for the member. Because it would remove the rift between the listener and member as the listener being the person with the power and mental stability and the member being a helpless person in need of help. This stigma is part of the reason why mental health is so alienated in the first place. No one is "meant" to only give or only receive support, and members and listeners alike deserve that understanding.
The reason messaging people with the 1-1 system wouldn't work is there would be no one to contact everyone. I can only message adult listeners. For some members, no one can initiate a chat.
I was really happy when this had been announced https://www.7cups.com/forum/7CupsLeadership_188/SafetyGuidelines_1374/ForumUpdateABetterModerationSystem_216996/
I actually have no idea how well anyone got feedback under that system and when it stopped. All I know is there were situations that lead to immediate account suspensions at one point and that no longer occurred after a while without any information. Eventually we were told it no longer did what it used to, but I don't know the timeframe of the dropped function to being informed.
I think having that system working and expanded would be ideal and would remove the need for commenting in forums about edits (where they take place) and deletions. This could also tie into the behaviour points system/a queue to be reviewed by a 2nd person (I would hope to have some red flags with immediate action with possibility for review and consequences adjusted as needed). I don't know why chatrooms had a system put in much earlier than forums and forums took a long time to get something in place and then had some of the functionality removed.
I’m willing to be part of the solution but will not respond for awhile now!
Happy holidays, whatever holidays are for you, and all the best for a better new year to all. Praying for peace. That’s a continuous prayer from my end.
@CalmRosebud Thank you so much for courageously sharing your thoughts, again, even after hate-filled responses and rejection. I greatly appreciate your words of wisdom, and I too have seen the off-balanced dichotomy between member/listener. As a listener, I definitely do not want to become a programmed robot, and I appreciate ALL voices on this forum, no matter education level, background, language, culture, number of path steps or status. Thank you for bringing this to light again.
Hi, purple lady,
Thank you for your very kind thoughts. I was pondering, as I am wont to do, and what I appreciate most about your statement is perhaps the implicit equality of Sharing Circles is what I like so much. Everyone (who is a member) can have an equal shot at up to 7 minutes of attention to their words. How often does that happen in real life with all the competing distractions? How often does everyone have an equal chance to participate? Some kind of magic happens when each person has the chance to articulate, to the best of their ability. It’s energy, it’s healing, it’s affirming. There’s power in the fact of such a short span of time, and everyone attending or listening, in building a community. I think you caught that in your comments. Thank you.