Feedback on post deletion and 7 cups site structure in relation to mental health and integration

@MistyMagic, @GlenM, @neonblueberry1843, @Coco08061969, @lightIdea2663

I will add for clarification that it was me who proposed removing the diary entry.

@MistyMagic removed only the small negative reaction to my diary thread and my response to that reaction including the fact that I plan to publish my story and am dissuaded from writing it here "for free." (I would rather collect royalties on my story if I have to tolerate harassment.)

@CalmRosebud I will also tag in @CheeryMango our Sub-community admin, and @Heather225 our Community Director

Listening - One Step At A Time!

@MistyMagic Thank you! I appreciate that!

@CalmRosebud I'm experiencing censorship issues trying to reply, so I'll try it one paragraph at a time.

I agree that the wording informing you of the deletion was insensitive and amounted to public shaming, when you had been the victim of some kind of weird personal attack. I think you deserve an apology for the way it was handled.

Charlie

I also agree with you that the primary division between listeners and members at 7 Cups is unhelpful. The idea seems to be to encourage listeners to be inauthentic, even robotic, as you correctly say, even though this goes against what has been considered best practice in professional helping relationships for at least half a century.

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie We agree on this point. However, the "entry mechanism" into 7 cups delineates these roles straight away.

@RarelyCharlie I wonder if there's a way to have everyone enter as a "member" but "progress" to a certain point when they can apply to be a "listener." Just a thought that would keep the integration piece present. I could give but also receive support but be the same person!

I noticed that "on boarding" to be a counselor on other sites, not mentioning names but most of them are crisis sites, is very intense, ie., 30 hours of training, mock chats/pairing with skilled therapist, then mandatory number of hours volunteering. It's intense, but then, crisis is intense, and it's proper that the training be thorough. Background checks also, which in my opinion is very important for a crisis site.

But this is not a crisis site. It's a support site. And I think this site delivers very good and comprehensive support. I wanted to throw some big love on this thread, because everyone here has treated my words with respect and I appreciate that so much. I have big love for 7 cups and all the possibilities. I read testimony about this every day from many different people. I appreciate all of you. Thank you.

@CalmRosebud That would certainly be possible in a technical sense. But I think the "disintegrated" member-listener structure is an example of Chesterton's fence. It must have served a purpose. Has its purpose gone away?

Charlie

Probably not! It seems successful! Just not for folks with dissociative identity disorders!

I thought of a poem you might like, since you mentioned Chesterton’s Fence, and you seem to like poetry. The quote, “Good fences make good neighbors” is in the poem, but I don’t think most people have read the whole poem. In it, the poet, Robert Frost, is actually questioning the quote. I think you might like it.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44266/mending-wall

To nitpick, I was surprised at the suggestion that 7 Cups was "mostly to support entrepreneurs". Accounts of 7 Cups' early development are somewhat in conflict, but I have never seen that particular suggestion before. For example, it's not mentioned in this account.

I was also surprised at "as a nonprofit business". 7 Cups of Tea Co was not originally registered as a nonprofit and I'm not aware that it has changed its registration status. I once checked the company registration records, although I don't have a link to hand. There is a separate nonprofit 7 Cups Foundation that I think is currently dormant.

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie Yes, to answer this I will pull a few links to articles about the early formation of 7 cups. I researched it because the Member/Listener dichotomy was always a puzzle to me and I thought that by researching I might be able to uncover some of the initial motivations.

Please keep in mind, I only stumbled across 7 cups two years ago. When I say stumbled, I mean, someone told me about it. I didn't research on the internet. No, I trusted a fellow person who gave me a tip. And I landed on 7 cups. And landed in a Sharing Circle. And it was all downhill (or uphill) from there. I published my first book. Yay, me. I found, on my own, a Writing Support Group. Many improvements were made.

I "give back" to 7 cups by being a Room Supporter and Hosting Sharing Circles. I am currently on self care break.

@RarelyCharlie So, regarding this particular point, I will find the source of my thought that this was a start up. I think it's mentioned in the link you sent as well.

Here's one: https://www.fastcompany.com/3026967/a-psychologist-in-y-combinator-and-his-controversial-mission-to-revolutionize-therapy

and here: https://cmxhub.com/stumbling-on-community-how-7-cups-of-tea-accidentally-grew-a-community-of-17000-listeners/

and here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6161958

Those are just a few. I would really have to search and pick through to find the exact place I saw the reference to entrepreneurs. Perhaps it was a misunderstanding on my part! This is a distinct possibility!

@CalmRosebud Well, it's true that there once was a Startup Support Community.

Charlie

Hmmmm.

@RarelyCharlie Another source suggesting 7 cups was started for entrepreneurs who might be looking for a low cost way to alleviate depression/stress: https://www.inc.com/business-insider/the-dark-side-of-leading-a-startup.html

In the original poem the 6th cup was fatal. The 7th cup was never drunk because the poet's soul had floated away to a paradise island. Many translations are inauthentic in this regard, presumably to avoid promoting the substance abuse aspect of this ancient tale.

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie Perhaps we are thinking of different poems, or a different interpretation of the same poem.

7 cups of tea by Lu Tong (795-835CE)

The first cup kisses away my thirst

and my loneliness is quelled by the second.

The third gives insight worthy of ancient scrolls,

and the fourth exiles my troubles.

My body comes lighter with the fifth,

and the sixth sends word from immortals.

But the seventh -- oh, the seventh cup --

if I drink you, a wind will hurry my wings

toward the sacred island.

Translated by Christopher Nelson

I have seen other translations where the lines are presented in quite a different way. For example, here's a version I found online:

This version is from Buddha Grove. I don't like it as much.

https://blog.buddhagroove.com/zen-poetry-7-cups-of-tea/

@CalmRosebud That's an excerpt from the original poem, and the translation is sanitized. Almost all references to the poem are like this.

For a complete, and more accurate, translation that also explains the historical context, see: Lu T’ung and the “Song of Tea”:

The sixth bowl makes me one with the immortal, feathered spirits. [that is, deceased]

The seventh bowl I need not drink…

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie Gotcha. Thanks for that original source. I will share with a friend who can translate for me. Perhaps there are several interpretations. I have not thought about it as long as you have. I have always liked the number seven for some inexplicable reason. I think it was one of the things that drew me to 7 cups, the number 7. Apparently, I am not alone, and perhaps this resonance was just destiny.

Charlie, I have read more carefully through the source you pointed out to me. And a second time. And a third time. Still see some ambiguity there, but that’s me and I am not a scholar of ancient Chinese. I can see why this poem might be an inspiration, and perhaps part of that is the ambiguity in interpretation.

Fourth reading, and here’s a question to ponder: how could the poet have written the poem in first person if 6th cup meant he died? Still seems to me like he achieved enlightenment and then didn’t have 7th cup because he was soaring around because somehow he wrote the poem in first person after the fact. Just a point to ponder.

Also, the historical significance of tea and the story of the poet’s life are quite compelling. I see some parallels with some of the major religious stories there though, caveat, I am no scholar in that area.

Final point of significant parallel is the idea that when someone is remembered, they don’t truly die. Their spirit or soul lives on. That’s why some religions have rituals “remembering “ someone who has died, memorials if you will. It was an interesting parallel to me.

No doubt, I will read this passage more, but again I thank you for pointing me towards it.

@RarelyCharlie Great source for interpretation of this poem! I also understood the 7th cup as attaining enlightenment, as from the passage the poet was able to see that the division between the opulent tea and the riches needed to bring it to him as versus the life of the peasants who actually grew the tea, was an unfair division --- he achieved a state of "enlightenment" or a state of wholeness and oneness. The "danger" of seeing this oneness is emphasized. It's "dangerous" to be enlightened. Then, he came back to earth and wrote the poem. (Caveat: I am not a Chinese language scholar, just a reader who reads.)

Hiya Charlie, just stumbled across this link that suggests the interpretation of enlightenment, FY entertainment. https://archive.globalteahut.org/docs/pdf_articles/2014-10/2014-10-a022.pdf

@RarelyCharlie It makes sense that people translating would not want to promote substance abuse. I come from a long line of translators. It was a topic of conversation in our house, how things were translated from one language to another. I'm not saying the languages only because of privacy but suffice it to say, one of my parents wrote a language textbook that is sadly no longer in print, and another one was a polyglot, who studied Chinese "for fun" and who, at the time of death, had command over at least 26 languages.

I was also surprised at "the best little shop in the town" and I wonder about the basis for that comparison. Even in its heyday 7 Cups was never top of the comparison websites' lists that I saw, and these days I don't think it makes the top ten.

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie So, "best little shop in town" is my expression based on my finding 7 cups (1) and also seeing a website saying it was the "best in teen counseling/chat" somewhere, I have to find the link. Also, I've invested two years and many hours into 7 cups so to me "the best" also has familiarity. Other places, I will not name names, are less personal, less friendly, in my humble opinion. It's the "best shop" for me.

@CalmRosebud Well, of course, I am still here too, so it's currently the best shop for me as well 😜

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie "Best for teens" source: https://www.healthline.com/health/mental-health/online-therapist-for-free#A-quick-look-at-the-best-free-and-affordable-online-therapy-services

@CalmRosebud Seems a little odd as the therapy option on site is only for adults!

@AffyAvo Yes, but you bring up a good point. The chatrooms are split between teens and adults but the forums are open to all, so the content basically has to be tailored to 13 year old level "just in case."

7 Cups does not allow personal contact information like emaíl addresses within the community. Your emaíl address is only used for administrative purposes and to log in. So it would be unusual for anyone to contact you by emaíl in response to a thread in the forum.

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification there.

@RarelyCharlie Hi, I appreciate your breaking your response into chunks, and I will reply accordingly.

No, your implication here is that nothing should have been done, and I beg to differ. I think the small post was handled in the way it should have been. I did respond to the harassment directly, and not in a very professional manner. I was at fault. However, I think the deletion could have been handled by 1:1 messaging rather than through a separate thread "communicating post deletions." Simple solution to a simple problem. Misty Magic was only doing what they were told to do; report unhelpful content and deal with it, by deleting, and then communicating the deletion. Misty Magic's touch was actually much more human than some websites I have seen, that just put an impersonal, clearly canned, statement for deletions, something along the lines of "content moderation has determined that this content needed to be removed, blah, blah, blah."

@CalmRosebud Oh, I'm sorry, I did not intend any implication that nothing should have been done. I flagged the (very) small post to ask for it to be deleted.

I flagged the thread because, according to the rules, that kind of thread must be posted from a member account. I think that rule is unhelpful, but I support the rules as they are, not as I might like them to be. Anyway, this flag was ignored. It was only when I flagged the (very) small post that action was taken.

Of course, I might not have been the only person flagging these posts.

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie Gotcha, point heard.

I read your response more carefully. The difference for me is that I wasn’t seeking support. It’s my story. You can’t change that. As my story, though, I have a right whether to share it or not. You can create conditions of trust that make it more likely I will share it, but in the most general terms, they are my memories. Now I understand better your flagging, because yes, it was personal. But no, I was not looking for support. It’s the world that has supported me and allowed me to survive, thrive, and even be happy. In spite of, but who knows, perhaps also because of my story.

@CalmRosebud You're right. And you did state that explicitly: "I thought it would be a good thing to share my story, because maybe it will help someone know they are not alone." However, writing "Please don't comment unless it's something supportive…" seemed to me, at the time, to make it ambiguous.

Charlie

Sorry for the ambiguity. I meant— Please do not comment unless it is something supportive as what I share is deeply personal. Oops, seems I said exactly what I wanted, which is no comments unless a person could think of something supportive to say, therefore clearly stating, or “modeling” my boundaries. For those who have trouble with that.

I’m trying to get over my annoyance that you thought me willingly sharing my trauma, a big brave step for me, was over sharing. I wonder if that implies that listeners have achieved some pinnacle of development where they are no longer allowed to model recovery. You also referred to censorship. While I agree that people should not be brought down by reading posts here, for some people, stories of recovery are incredibly powerful. Finally, I asked to have my post removed, and yet you referred to it. The post and its contents didn’t go away. They still exist, are a part of me, and they inform my listening journey and ability to empathize with others who have suffered and are recovering.

Happy New Year! I will let you know when I publish my book, a promise I made to myself but which is a work in progress.