NOT A SAFE SPACE

@FuzzyMum

Thank you.

Ultimately saying succinctly words that I wanted to hear and things to allay all my fears. "this should not have happened," is ultimately the most assuring words that could have been said. I'm sorry for lashing out, and being a bit of a jerk to the community.

It was shockingly contrary to my expectations. The best reassurance and I could be given is the idea that the norm and the ethos is far from this.

I really am not sure what to say in reply other than thank you.

I reiterated points with others, and found empathy and compassion in what my of the people who replied to me said. But, your reply hit me in the feels.

Anyway, thank you.

@toughTiger6481

I was in a place of anger and lashing out.

My concerns were not only over the listener though, and I do not think such and interaction should be happening. I have a more detailed breakdown of events in my response further down in this post replying to @blueAngel00

But, I am sorry.

I don't really think of them as spokesmen for the site, and I am happy for those who are able to find help.

I do want raise alarm bells, warnings, and concerns. I don't want to be part of a community that engages or tolerates the sort of advice I received.

I am sorry for painting everyone with the same brush.
Anyway, my other reply has a more detailed context of both the circumstances and motivations, but, it is a mischaracterization to believe that it is the one conversation by which I came to lash out of anger and bitterness. But, I have still been angrily lashing out and painting with a fairly broad brush.

Sorry

@MangoGelatoinWinter

I am trying to be hopeful and give time.
Yet, I wanted to raise the alarm bells.
I also was lashing out in a position of anger.

@blueAngel00

The comment about toxic positivity was really in relation and reference to my early post, where I talked about the things that I found had gone poorly in the onboarding process. I may elaborate on this later in this response, but I want to respond to some of the other points raised first.

Really, first, I ought to apologize. I really was in a place bad place at the time of posting. I had come here, having been directed from other resources, in the hopes that I would find a bit more consistent of a support network in dealing with some of the depression, and some of the intrusive thoughts. The hope being to find an outlet that I can have for some of the ongoing issues, but also to be able to have a network fall upon within the moments of the downward spiral. I may have engaged in conversations and looked at resources on the site with some false expectations. Similarly, it may be the case that I'm just all ego and greed and that nothing is enough.

It is wrong to paint the community with such broad brushstrokes. I have had a few positive interactions with community members at this point, and most the people, judging from their own posts, writings, and listening in on the chat rooms, are empathetic, kind, and adept at handling 'real-talk,' so to speak. So, there is an apology owed for blindly coloring everything with the same brush.

I am sorry for that.

I don't actually believe that the community is bad. I do worry, again, about some concerns of toxic positivity from top-down, but I suspect the community writ large, likely to favor some of the better of the humans.

But, I also feel the encounter that I had should not have happened.

I truly want to raise the alarm bell, having had it happen. Having had it happen as my first time going through the more official "find a listener," "describe your problem," sorts of steps. Having waited in que for someone to talk to me after having an inkling as to where I would be coming from, I did not expect such an encounter.

I would like the community to have the expectation that such encounters won't happen.

That expectation may have been misplaced and falsely high, and lashing out at the community as a whole is with out a doubt unwarranted. But, I wanted to sound the alarm.

One of the things that has given me and does given me the most comfort is feelings of inclusion. Knowing that other people have some of the same struggles and same thoughts makes me feel less alienated and isolated. I thereby like to assume that others may sometimes think like me as well and have similar responses and feelings. The experience had gone surprisingly and poorly enough for me that I wanted to fight a bit for others who might be in a similar position or might think like me to put in place training, safety measures, or have part of the certification process include steering away from these sorts of responses.

Now, to return to the thoughts on 'toxic positivity,' and those concerns in order to add some clarity. (This will be a bit of rehashing of my earlier post, so, forgive the redundancy). I did not have concerns about toxic positivity before signing up for the site. They came as part of onboarding to the site. I came because I was told this might be an good access point to to a therapist, and my first step was to sign up for a therapist to help with my specific issues, and I began to poke around the community and the site a bit more after signing up with them. This is just to clarify timing, because I don't want to leave with the impression that I first looked around the site and became concerned and then signed up, when the events happened in the other order.

I raise the point of toxic positivity, because, there are frames of mind and views on positivity that I do find toxic or anathema to my imbittered and cynical self, but, I exist in a society with a diversity of thought, and many people embrace many thoughts I disagree with. There becomes a problem, however, when any worldview, ideology, or frame-of-mind becomes a filter by which you weed out the plurality of opposing views.

I grew concerned in the site when I signed up and was automatically enrolled in a path. I'm a big believer in volunteerism, and I did not like having no say in the matter. I did expect some amount of people saying positive aphorisms and words of encouragement writ large to to others. I was not surprised or upset by people talking about the things the were grateful for, or wishes for tomorrow, or things like that. I rolled my eyes when I did the first breathings exercise on 'my path,' or did the forum post, and the site told me I had "leveled-up," and could now have a profile picture. Just as there is a part of me that rejects being enrolled in a path without consultation, a part of me inherently rejects hierarchies, so thinking that I know was in a system where certain privileges were bestowed by rank, and ranks were tracked, didn't make me feel welcome, but society loves a hierarchy, so it is what it is. Yet, when I poked about the community and listener guides I grew concerned when I encountered recorded talks like "happiness is a choice." and the like.

I have a concern that there has been a selective process for those that administer the site. Concerns that come about through phrases like 'happiness is a choice' and other rhetoric and systems on the site. The concern isn't that they are there, it is that other thoughts are weeded out.

I do take some of the responsibility for the interactions that I have had on this site, but, in the broader picture, I also do believe bad things can happen for no reason, people can be cruel to each other and that someone can be purely a victim. I believe in chaos, chance, and entropy and major players in all things, and I fear that embedded within thoughts like 'happiness is a choice,' or, were we to take the prior thought more broadly 'we bear some responsibility in all our interactions,' that at some point the line is crossed into victim blaming, into walling up, into a closing off of empathy. I worry that there is too much of 'the path to happiness' about the site in the community.

To reduce it to the absurd, I worry that the core cabal is a cult.

That worry is combated by the community. The community seems diverse, and I see a variety of posts. In the group conversations I find most the people being empathetic, real, and realistic.

Yet, between the negative feelings from the onboarding process, the fears about a group that had weeded out a diversity of frames of mind, and the flavor and tone of the chat, I wanted to lash out. Raise alarms, scream a little.

I don't even know how much I want things changed. I do want some amount of better safety to prevent that sort of conversation from happening under that circumstance, but I suspect, by and large the people that run things and administer things are truly warm, empathetic, caring, and taking care of the community at large as best they can. But, I also know that I want a conversation happening up the ladder about some of the impressions, feelings, and interactions that I've had coming to the community.

The sweeping judgment had a lot of lashing out in it, and a lot of attention seeking.

But, the judgement is not coming from the interaction alone. It is coming from some of the features of the site itself, some of the communications surrounding their training and certification, and the interaction of the chat that precepted the post. That combined had me lash out at the community broadly and not just the one person who I interacted with in chat specifically. I merely blocked them, rated the chat poorly, and reported why I felt it was a poor interaction through the channels provided.

It was wrong of me to lash out as I did, and a lot got painted harshly in a manner unwarranted.

Even here, I fear some of my critiques are still not toned down properly. But, I'm a lot calmer now in writing then when I had posted before. I hope the time and calmness have made the difference.

Really, though, I do want to raise an alarm bell that an interaction could have happened this way, and to also raise a conversation about selecting for or pushing a mind-set or ideology while creating an inclusive and diverse community. I have not gone about either of those with much grace or class.

Anyway, we may end up with differing in some of those philosophies to navigate the world and all that, but, I hope the elaboration has provided a bit of clarity.

My impression right now is of a site with a core or good people and many tools that are good for many folk, but with a little too homogonous and conforming a veneer about it to entirely feel welcoming. I'm trying to find my niche, or carve out a niche. Even if failing, I want to leave enough flags laying about that it might be rectified going forward.

I was lashing out, and I was being unfair and unkind. I am sorry.

@Spearman60

I agree, people are all different and have different approaches and outlooks and things.

I reached out, however, to a 'certified listener.'
I took this certification to mean that the community had vouched for the person as a listener, and that the person had likely done some specific training with dealing with the depressed.

I waited 10-15 minutes in que to be connected to a listener after having described my problem as 'hopelessness.'

I am totally okay with people being individuals. I went to the public char room over the weekend. I had a good experience and everyone there was kind, but I was prepared, in such a forum, to encounter hostilities.

I was not prepared to encounter discouragement when I reached out to a certified listener to talk about the specific issue that was plaguing me in that moment.

I sort of suspect that most the community are people facing their own struggles and trying to find and express empathy, and most are just people. My warnings and fears really concern the way in which the moderation and certification happens.

I feel that every part of this site is aimed at getting people to seek out such conversations under a veneer of help and safety. To me, that creates for the site an obligation to moderate such interactions at some level.

I signed up for the site because my regular therapist, my doctor, and I all believe I don't need to be voluntarily committed, yet I lack a support network. I was told of this community after connected to a crisis line a few weeks ago. All of those vectors of information lead me to believe that the site would have more safety than 4chan or reddit.

I have met some good people on this site at this point.

I have met most of them through their forum posts or their presence in the chats. My interaction through 'connect to a listener' went poorly.

My honest motivation is to improve site safety.

Like, I'm at a certain amount of risk, but I'm not in crisis. The weekend was hard. It was the anniversary of my friend and mentors taking the exit, but, most of my struggle is dealing with intrusive thoughts, not taking actions impulsively. My concern is, were I a person truly in crisis and I to end up at this website as my port of call, that I the conditions might be worsened.

It is not fair to paint the entire community with such broad brushstroke.

Many of the community members I have encountered have been supportive.

Yet, my first impression of the site was both overwhelming and had some negative connotations (see previous post). Then, when I did finally try to reach out for a listener, I tried to use all the site tools that I could avail myself to reach someone well suited to help speak to someone in my my state of mine, and I was met with "do what you want."

I don't like to stir up trouble, but, it was an interaction shocking enough that I'm willing to fight a little to see things change.

I must admit though, that part of me was still in touch with that dark void that wishes to suck all things down into it when I wrote. So, I lashed out. Sorry for that.

@CheeryMango Thank you.

A lot of my posts in the forums have been a result of not being able to communicate directly with administrators of the site (see my first post, where community feedback form was down).

I would much rather have been able to voice some of the things I have had to voice privately. Instead, I have been trying to thread the needle of complaining publicly without inciting the mob. This link is very helpful

@HermitHealer

I suspect you're right in what are the underlying causes. And yeah, I also know this is not for the more serious crises. I ended up calling the crisis line immediately after, and it maybe where I should have started. I hate tying up their resources though if I'm not in dire dire need, and I'm often much more of a premeditated actor than they are used to dealing with. Like, I'm often not an immediate danger to myself, but the thoughts and impulses can come like a flood. I'm good at resisting at this point, but, sometimes it just helps to talk, or listen, or be distracted.

I got on this site after being directed from the crisis center thinking that the community or some of the therapists here may be good to help at more of those 'in the moment' problems. Like I see another therapist weekly, but, I'm still floundering, and it's been recommended to find more resources. I'm trying to get that sorted.

But, the encounter had gone poorly enough that I wanted to sound alarm bells.

There was a bitterness and lashing out in the tone that I regret, but, I do not think the encounter should have happened the way that it did considering the steps that I followed.

Finding a good therapist is a lot like dating, not every pairing will work. I'm sorting out whether the therapist I've been matched with here will work. I tend challenge my therapists early it would seem. I often worry that I may be offensive to them, and often fear that they may push ideas that I have rejected onto me when I am most vulnerable. So, I often make a bit of a poor first impression.

I suspect I make a poor first impression generally, and not just with my therapist, if I am being honest.

I understand too that my experience is subjective, and may be an outlier. But, I'm also of the opinion that it should not have happened. I don't know how to go about preventing such things. I do regret being so imbittered, but, I also want to bang loudly on the tocsin.

@antico

"The nail that stands out gets hammered down."

Everyone is entitled to their own belief, but it becomes a problem if the goal is to create a safe space, and there is a majority that demands and hammers in conformity. But, I don't need to reiterate the points I've made in the other replies and all that.

I don't really find the community a cesspool. I'm slowly being connected to some of the more supportive parts of it.

Yet the encounter went poorly enough that I did want to hue and cry. I lashed out needlessly and, that I regret.

I'm trying to find those godless, LBTQIA+, pinko commies to talk to, but most the listeners and therapist have had a little too much of the good spirit in them for me to have quite found my home and people on here yet.

One of the advantages of being new is that I haven't really made friends, and, if I make enemies, I can leave with little loss, as I've put little of myself here and risked little trust or vulnerability. It both lets me take the risk of screaming and throwing a hissy fit about a bad exchange. I can lash out and get aggressive, get defensive, and just be a jerk with little risk or consequence. But, the other side of that is that I have a courage now to voice the things that make me uncomfortable that I will lack when I start to develop better relationships and continue to have better encounters.

There is disillusionment that comes when reality meets false expectation, and some of my lashing out comes as a result of a false expectation, yet, while I attempt to eat my crow while it is young, I maintain that the service received under the circumstances was intolerably substandard. It is one thing to not be able to help, it is another to nudge towards the edge.

I am sorry for lashing out, and saying cruel things about the community at large.