Back 7 Cups: Part I of Making 7 Cups Sustainable

@GlenM @RocketsMom

[Tagged for large interaction and answers in this thread]

Let me begin by saying this: We all have our own views, worries, concerns and thoughts about different topics. We are all unique and as a result see things differently. this post is in no way intended to be hateful, disrespectful or rude - it's simply a voice of curiosity and concern.

1) Many people using this site come from an under privileged background, or current state. As a result many people, especially teens with no jobs etc, may simply be unable to contribute to the site in this way - this isn't a big issue until the "perks" come into play. Not being able to access equal care and support services on a free support site seems unfair, if it's based on your income. Some people on here are in very low states of poverty and may need this "advanced care system" but simply won't be able to afford it.

2) The old and classic concerns over "favouritism". Don't get this point wrong, I understand we aim to limit this impact on 7 cups as much as possible and it's not exclusive to the site, it happens in all big companies, businesses and health sectors across the globe, however it must be considered. Any company knows that banning/blocking/punishing those who contribute to their survival is a bad plan, so generally speaking this leads to 'special rights' being given to these 'donators/contributors' in order to keep the over all project going, or they get more rapid responses and care, (depending on the company and its aims etc). I just have a fear of it making the moderate amount already present, worse. I know you'll aim to limit this effect but some detailed clarification would likely help satisfy many people.

3) I may be a bit out-dated, since I'm not involved in 7 cups financing in any way, but why is there a new need for such income? At launch (or a while after it), wasn't there a very significant investment and support going for the site? This included, but wasn't limited to, (If memory servers me right); "Justin Sullivan", "Zachary Townsend" and "Paul Buchheit". I'm certain there were others but I can't recall their names. I know these people made significant investments and I believed they still did? I'd appreciate knowing why there is a new need for such donations from the site listeners and members; has the cost really increased that much to run the site?

4) Can content that is donated for be shared indefinitely, such as the guides? I know this may defy the purpose but I am a great believer in the right for all people to have equal chances and support within healthcare. My main passion for listening and helping on 7 cups spawned from the point it provides everything it does, to anyone who needs it, for free. If people who can afford to could "donate" and share this content I think it would be better received than keeping it all private.

5) Will it be made very evident to donators that our listeners are volunteers, many of whom have no formal training, and are not paid for their work in any way? There are still misconceptions by users about listener standards as it is, i wouldn't want this update to worsen that situation and cause unrealistic expectations among users.

I have various other thoughts but I think they've been mostly covered in other posts, so that's just a matter of reading it again and working it out in my head. Again, please don't take this as a rant. I can see big benefits for 7 cups from this update, but I would just like to voice these concerns I have and get clarification and information on them. I wish you, and the 7 cups team the best of luck with this update and hope it all works out well.

~ Baubs

Ive read this and some other related threads and now I understand the vision (and the dilemmas) of @GlenM. This site is a for profit enterprise; and it has a lot of advantages (after creating the sustainability of the site in a few agile, creative way – with an open, flexible attitude in the leadership):

- it remains free for the members and the listeners; who pay for extra services is usually just small percentage (of course this is their individual choice) – this is only one of the possible sources of sustainability (e.g. corporate sponsorship)
- the site will provide a high-quality service for everyone; besides this it will be improved continuously
- very important that no one will burn out (from listeners, staff, leadership)

@2015ihope thats why the site will be free for you :)

I'm a newish member, only been here a couple weeks or so, and I've benefited very well from this site in the time I've been here.
I've only just now found out about this when I saw that green button on my path page. At first I'd say I felt disappointed, I realize the site needs funds, but I thought the paying option would be something benign like merchandise (tshirts and posters), not actual self-help content.

Personally I would currently do the "back 7 cups" option, as it appears to be the most flexible and affordable. However I have no disposable income, so looks like that content is lost to me. Are these unique paths just fancy skin changes to the current path? Or will they challenge me to make improvements to my life that the current path doesn't do? Do they lead somewhere?

My path feels stagnant. I feel no progression since I'm always in the middle, and my steps are 100% determined by me, which means if I just want to skip to the end of a feed boost, I can do that. Sure I may not be helping myself in the process, I get that this site isn't to get the most badges or anything, but the fact that it even has achievements for chatting the the chatrooms, it definitely taps into a game-mentality for me.
I'm a game designer, and this whole site is like gamefied self-help to my eyes. It may be my own problem that I'm seeing this site through such a strong game lens, I get that, but the game-like qualities of this site are unmistakable.

So, to my eyes, when I see a company take these mechanics of self-help, and tack on a 'pay-to-win' option, I kinda feel funny about it. Granted 5$ isn't the worst price, it's okay, but what about the people who have no jobs yet? The teens who maybe they're on the site secretly?
I know you say that no one will be made to feel unequal, and I believe that you truly believe that, but I feel like that's going to be hard when you have a selection of people who literally have more access to help than the rest.

I will say this, Thank you for not making this mandatory, and I hope that I've been able to contribute something useful in my own blunt way.

@Glen

I was about ready to do the $5 a month donation so that I could have the perks but there was a lot of discussion about that $5 does NOT give u the perks and u have to give $13 a month to get those perks. Can u spell out for us what exactly u get if u do a $5 donation? Also I am just getting my account back because it was banned due to a bad(and inaccurate) review from a member who was not happy with me. This is a problem I have experienced and know of many other listeners and mods who have had some issues wih this. With this policy of suspending a listener for poor reviews with no questions asked, is there also going to be an automatic cancelation of my donation if u suspend my account and i am unable to utilize these perks regardless of the reason my account gets suspended? If my member account gets banned, will I have a way of getting on my account and canceling my monthly donations since I would no longer be allowed to utilize the site or access my account?

@GlenM - There's been some confusion going on in the Group Chat rooms. There is a message popping up for some of us that looks like this <- and the url it takes them too looks different than the current one that's on top of the screen.

This is the page it takes them to, (https://www.7cups.com/backus/upgrade7cups.php) while this is the page up at the top of the screen. (https://www.7cups.com/backus/back7cups.php)

There have been questions on the differing prices and I remembered you mentioning earlier in this topic that you would try one method (donating) before attempting the other method (upgrading). Is it possible someone put the wrong url by mistake?

Okay, that was a whirlwind few hours. We posted the back us/upgrade feature. There was some confusion. We hopped on a conference call and answered a number of questions. @krinkthemellowunicorn and I have been answering questions in the forum and via PM. Let me summarize where I think we are at:

1. Most everyone understands and agrees that 7 cups has to be sustainable.*

2. Most everyone understands that we are not sure the best way to get 7 cups sustainable and that it'll require research and testing to figure that out.

3. Most everyone is concerned about not compromising 7 cups and making sure that we stay true to our mission.

4. Most everyone understands that language on buttons asking people to upgrade etc. and whether or not those buttons use advertising like language is tricky and, if not done right, can be offensive.

I'm very glad we are in a common place of understanding on the above issues. I think the biggest challenge right now is number 4. We agree that 7 Cups needs to reach sustainability, but we don't yet know how it is going to get there. It may be that we do not need any sort of advertising language at all. It may be that people just want to back us and support our mission. I really hope that is the case. However, we are not sure at this point. We need to err on the side of research, experimentation, and, yes, even using adverting like language to figure this out, because we don't yet know the right path to get to sustainability. I appreciate the feedback, help, and patience. We'll know much more in a couple of weeks.

*Sustainable means 7 cups can cover its expenses. Right now 7 Cups does not generate any income. Every organization has to generate income in order to survive. Stated simply, if 7 cups does not generate income, then it cannot continue to exist. i.e., it won't be sustained. Expenses include things like infrastructure costs, servers, software services, salaries, and office costs. These are the same expenses that any organization needs to cover and we are the same way. We are now trying to get sustainable to make sure that 7 Cups can exist for decades and decades to come. Please read the first post in this thread for more details.

Hey I wasn't at the call from last night and I may be a bit confused here.

From what I've seen when reading about the upgrade, that is more for members who are using it for help and resources to get better. Are listeners gonna be restricted to only a "basic" package of resources and opportunities as well or just members? If that makes any sense at all. @GlenM

I'll take a moment tonight and read more of what everyone said in this thread.

Thanks all for patience and understanding as we figure all of this out and answer questions. I summarized all of the main issues above. Let me take a minute to also share what we are planning to do in the next few steps and a bit more into the future.

1. We want to provide the ability to gift 7 cups to another member or guest. One thing we've heard is that there are some folks that want to upgrade, but have financial constraints. We understand that and think one solution may be for a way for people to gift 7 cups. We'll know more soon on this.

2. As discussed above, there is tension around advertising language. We need to do a lot of testing around back us and also upgrade language. Some of what we have to test will include advertising like language. We do not yet know how this will work out, but need to test all of our options. Again, it is better for us to be more aggressive here and get to a sustainable place, than it is for us to be not aggressive enough and cease to exist. I appreciate patience and flexibility as we figure things out.

One part of upgrading that works across other sites and in the broader mental health industry is personalization. i.e., when you provide a tailored solution to a person, then it is more valuable to them. For example, when you go to therapy or to see a psychiatrist, then they interview you and give you a diagnosis. They then provide a treatment to you based on that diagnosis. You can think of this as a sort of personalization. 7 Cups will soon start testing personalized language. We don't yet know how/if it'll work, but it is something we need to test.

Now, to really put things in context, mental health professionals provide either therapy or psychiatric interviews to help clients personalize things. Therapy on the low end runs about $100 USD a session. Psychiatric interviews are several hundred. Monthly cost - at the very low end - is $400 for a tailored treatment. Our 7 Cups growth path is not therapy or psychiatric help, but it is a personalized way to help people with a particular issue. Again, to put this in context, 7 Cups would run you $5, $7.99, or $12.99/month. Think about those cost differences. 7 Cups - at the most expensive rate is 7% of the costs of monthly mental health treatment. Stated another way, 7 cups is $387 cheaper than low end mental health services.

We've still got a lot to figure out here. Like with everything on 7 cups, it takes time to review the data, iterate, and tweak things. We've done this with group support, the growth path, and the feed. We are doing it now with back us/upgrade. It'll be a process, but we'll have all of the puzzle pieces fitting together in a clear way in the next couple of weeks.

So I was sitting here thinking, @GlenM has nothing better to do right now, so I should ask him a question! Ok, I get this is NOT a charity or not for profit. If you read the "fine print" when you signed up it tells you they make money (probably not a lot) selling our info (minus names etc) to advertisers. This is why EVERY DARN COMPANY wants you to use a loyalty card. Target gives you coupons based on your shopping habits and 5% off your purchase.

So I have no issue "working for free" for a "for profit" company. It makes me feel good, I like it, why not? NO ONE is held here or chained to their desk (except maybe Laura). So if this bothers you, leave. This is a free choice thing. I volunteer for a hospital because I like helping sick people. I heard the nurses talk about the fact ONE DRUG they were using was $600 a vile. So, yeah someone is making money somewhere.

I just have ONE QUESTION / REQUEST. I DO NOT feel that listeners should be paid. My training took me minutes and I was watching old Criminal Minds episodes at the time. Now should people who went to school and got their degree be paid? Not sure I care either way. But I was wondering if you have ever considered a "small token/thanks for helping/we couldn't do it without you" rewards system? Just a idea. But say every listener who took 14 (2 a day) or more chats gets put in the drawing. So every Friday you have a drawing for a $20 gift card to Target or Starbucks or where ever. ESPECIALLY if these companies become partners and they offer this to their employees. I think that being offered the CHANCE for a small gift or prize feels nice to me. I am all for keeping them small, say $10 or $15 and spreading the wealth. So say every Friday 5 cards all worth $10 were given away. MOST of these are available to be sent electronically and I don't see it costing a lot, other than the $50. Maybe Glen will have to cut back on razors to shave his head (I do the same, BTW COSTCO has them at a GREAT price).

So that's it..... WOW this is my most positive post ever. I ALWAYS feel like I am at odds with the leadership. I am TOTALLY FINE with the moves that have been made and I am just being patient to see if issues arrive. You take care of them THEN. I am not going to raise all kinds of issues and try to fix them ahead of time. CLEARLY a ton of time has been spent figuring this out, so who am I to think I bring anything more to the table? I am a Survey Monkey user. I do it and the charity I pick gets 50 cents for every survey I take. They have a "spin the wheel" feature when you are done. Frankly they offer 1 BIG prize. I NEVER win. I like the idea of more SMALLER prizes. Anyway I think that often offering a small thank you goes a long way to the health of the "company-employee" relationship. Ok someone PLEASE agree with me, because if not I am going to cry and have to pay to see my therapist AGAIN..... so sad!

Hi,

So... We have seen and participated in a lot of discussions and maybe arguments about this update. This is a shoutout to a big part of the community that supports the update. This post is not about the update itself, it's about how we're dealing with it as a community.

First of all, I do understand that 7 cups needs financial support, I do understand that @GlenM considered all options and decided to try the one that sounded stable the most. I do understand that it's completely optional for any person to pay or not to pay.

However, let's please remember that we're here on 7 cups to support people whether they are members or even listeners and we have a duty of showing understanding to their feelings. If a listener thinks that the visibility of the badge in the chatrooms promotes popularity issues or any sort of unhealthy competition, let's please respect that, if anyone of you think it's wrong or immature for a listener to think this way please remember that none of us is in a position to tell anyone how to feel. If they feel this way then they simply feel this way.

As for the perks available for members, some of you explain that the original services are free and will continue to be free, and that the new perks are "Additions". Well this is true for existing members, but this is not how new joining members are going to perceive it, they'll come to 7 cups to simply see that there are two kinds of accounts, one is for free and one is charged.

How do you think a poor member will feel when they see other members enjoying and discussing their personalized paths and other perks this member simply couldn't get because they're poor? I really think we can all agree on one answer for that, but what is honestly annoying is that No one answered this question. I know we implemented the best plan to back 7 cups but why can't we admit that this plan is not damage-free? is it so bad to admit that we live in a world where perfect solutions do not exist? Why is it so difficult to acknowledge the feelings of those who are upset? why do we insist on making it sound like everything is okay when it's really not the case for everyone? why don't we show that we actually feel sorry for the ones who were hurt by this update even if they were few?

Showing more respect and understanding of the feelings of those who are upset about the update does not mean you are against the update, and trying to refute their feelings will only cause more stress and make it much more difficult for them to accept the change.

Luka