I never developed an idea of "self"
Not this is a very long post and I recommend only reading it if you are interested in one of the main struggles vulnerable narcissists deal with.
Hello there. It's paradoxical that I'm stating this because I even struggle to define what I struggle and can't admit that I struggle. It's hard to understand if you never expirienced it. It sort of feels like you are just adopt every thought about yourself everyone makes. But you would never say you do this without some authority telling it to you.
As narcissistic personality disorder patient (NPDP) this is the main struggle I have to face. I feel so empty, lonely, emtionless and numb that I can't even cry or admit that I feel ANYTHING. That is because I never truly developed an idea or a connection to my inner self. The "normal" NPDP experiences struggles in parenting and does not get accepted or feels rejected. (unplanned parenthood, anxious/aggressive behavior, hypersensitive registration of problems within the family, etc.) They need to "fit in" because it's the instinct to survive. You are vulnerable to you surrounding and if you feel like you could loose the protection (parents, when they criticise you e.g.).
Now, so called vulnerable (or hidden) narcissists aren't the stereotype of the drunk, agressive, reckless father who is beating up his wife and suppressing everybody at work because they feel as if they are the center of the universe. That is the grandiose type. These people often go "undiagnosed" because they never feel the need of treatment. Their destruction is turned outwards, to others, while the vulnerable narcissists bottles up their feelings because of the fear of being unaccepted from others.
I always feel inferior to others, but obsessivly try to find out what I'm better at so I can feel that I'm superior to them, so they can't harm me. Also, the problem that I stated first, to never ever developing any sense of "me" is because I was never accepted as who I am since my childhood. My curiosity was always told to be annoying. My feelings were "talked" away ("You don't need to be sad, you got everything!"; "Why are you anxious? We are all here.", "Don't look so sad"), I always was the "good" guy who does and knows everything better (this often causes star-kids to collaps because of the pressure that goes along with this overestimation) "Now look at Erik, he is so good and brave and nice, BE LIKE HIM!""Oh! He is doing everything so well. Lucky kid. He is so good at everything" Yeah. But only because I pressured myself to do so to keep the right to even exist.
This created very deep scars I'm currently healing. I don't feel when I say "I love you" I don't know if I'm really anxious, I don't know if I feel ANYTHING or am sure about ANYTHING I wrote here. I'm not sure if I'm struggleing or pretending. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the real problem. I have no idea about me. Not just about my goals in life, who I am, what I want (that changes every two weeks tbh), but also WHAT I FEEL. I never every created feelings on my own. I'm adapting everything. This also was the first step I HAD to take in therapy. To adept the idea that I'm a NPDP. Because I myself would never state that, the therapist had to tell it to me, so I'm just adapting this idea. Because without it I would feel as lost as all the last 4-5 years. The first step, as funny as it sounds, was to believe something someone says to me, because I would never believe it myself even if that is what I have to learn, I would never make progress without knowing what I'm going through because I. HAVE. NO. IDEA. WHAT. I. FEEL.
Hope this clears things up. Any NPDPs who can relate? Or anyone who feels the same?
Cheers & lots of love,
Erik
@Histerikal
Thank you for sharing <3
I think the way you describe things is very interesting and clear, and a lot of people will be able to relate to it—not only people who are themselves narcissists.
There are times in everyone's life when they feel empty, lonely, emotionless or numb, when they feel they can't even cry. For most people, though, feeling that way is temporary or even fleeting. Most people have some mysterious inner process that makes things OK again sooner or later. They don't usually have to do anything special. It just happens. For you, I guess, that just doesn't happen.
Many of the other things you describe are also things that people who don't have personality disorders also experience, although perhaps not so intensely or so often.
This is not always helpful, unfortunately. Sometimes if you express feelings that other people recognize within themselves, they will respond with warmth and understanding. But sometimes if you express feelings that other people fear within themselves, they will respond dismissively.
I hope you've found that listeners here are not dismissive, and that you've been able to discuss these kinds of issue with some of us. If you'd ever like to chat to me about these things, feel free to send me a message.
@Histerikal
@RarelyCharlie Dang "Sometimes if you express feelings that other people recognize within themselves, they will respond with warmth and understanding. But sometimes if you express feelings that other people fear within themselves, they will respond dismissively."
Droppin some wisdom there, my friend. Thank you, I've never heard that said so clearly.
@Histerikal I'm a "classic" narcissist as opposed to a vulnerable one, myself. I can relate to some things in your post though. I too have a difficult time with emotions. I don't necessarily feel numb, as that description seems to imply more of a negative experience of not feeling. I think I'm more or less just indifferent a lot of the time. If I'm not, I'm pissed off. I can't decide if I just don't experience a full range of emotion or if I'm just extremely disconnected from my emotions. Truly "opening up" to people is something I find extremely difficult. I mean, I share things about myself, but in a controlled way...I never show any sort of weakness, I guess you could say.
As far as identity or sense of self...I do have a consistent sense of self and an identity, but I don't think my identity formed naturally like other people's do. For example, other people form their identity based off of their experiences and their life. If someone grows up in a small town, they may feel that that's an aspect of who they are. If someone played a lot of sports in school, they likely consider that a part of their identity. People typically use things like that to piece together who they are. Instead, I think I picked my identity. Instead of basing it off of my life experiences and things like that, I've basically chosen what I think would make others envy or admire me or what I think would be impressive, and I've adopted that image as who I am.
@robokitty
Hey there beautiful,
I can also relate to many things you mentioned. Most of all with the "made up" personality thing. I once was like that, too, but had something therapist often refer to as a "narcissistic breakdown" where you even question your deepest personality. I was a combination of normal personality traits. I was gently and nice, but sometimes mean, distanced and floating above everyone. But (as you might be able to relate) I was reminded of the deep wounds or traumas every narcissist had in some ways. I was really dependant from my first love because I really felt the pain that being alone means again. So I did everything to please her (only when she drifted away from me of course, else I took it as granted) and she really played with my feelings. Now I'm here. Third month in psychiatry. Because of the trauma it left in my. I SPLITTED my character even more, not knowing what's right and what's not... Now I have to learn that this also is acceptable. That I have to radically accept everything about me. Even those sides. Do you know what I mean?
Sending best of wishes and love,
Erik
Dear Erik,
I think I know exactly what you mean. I have never been diagnosed as NPD but the more I read about it, the more I think I might have it. Of course NPD means extreme narcissism, and there are the gray line between "no narcissist at all - full blown NPD" And when I even think about it I can only cry. Because to me it means that there is no hope. I will never be able to love or receive love. And to me this is a fate worse than death. There is no cure. No redemption. Thats what they say. The doctors. The therapists.
I have huge problems in romantic relationships because my instincts are not working properly. I have no way to distinct safe, trustworthy person from somebody who is not safe. And when the paranoia comes I just do not know what is real. And I know how it hurts when you open your heart to somebody and she does not really care about you, it puts my walls up even more. I have to push you away because if you come too close and then abandon me, I am not strong enough to survive. It means death to me. But I do not want you to go away completely. For these reasons I do everything to make you come back. There is one thing I will never do. I will never threat you with violence. I will never call you bitch or cunt or anything like that. But I do blame you of something you probably did not do. I express my needs in manipulative ways. Or maybe you did something minor, but you do not know that you are touching open wound that was never healed. This is why you see me overreacting. You do not know that, because I never let you to see it. Because it will tie my hands. How can I fight back if you try to hurt me if my hands are tied? At the same time I do not want you to disappear. Please do not go. Please come back. I beg you. I do everything you want. I need you more than you need me. And because I am so needy, it is so difficult for me to see your needs. It does not mean I do not care about you, in my own way. I do not have much to give. But I will give you everything I have and I will do everything I can to become a man capable of loving and receiving love.
But I understand this is too painful for you. So you have to go, and I understand. You are cursed just like me. Because of that we met in the first place. You are conflicted just like I am. We are the same kind. And we could help each other to heal, because we understand each other. But we will never let each other close enough. That is the curse I am talking about.
I do not know, maybe I do not have NPD. But I do know something is wrong with me.
I feel for ya. It sounds a lot like BPD rather than NPD. But from what I've learned, all mental illnesses stem from childhood abuse. I can't give advice on here but I can say that there is a ton of hope for CPTSD. I am a survivor too and Both my poor parents suffer from CPTSD as well. Message me for more details if you want.
I don't think I've ever related so much to something. I completely get this, like on a spiritual level. It's frustrating. I can fully relate, I dunno what to say but yeah I feel you entirely.
I feel the exact same way... Not to throw a pity party because I know I do that to gain sympathy a lot, but it makes it so much harder to connect with anyone when you have no idea who you are! I, very much like you, pushed away my real personality when I was super young and developed whatever my father wanted me to be. Now as I'm trying to strip away my narcissism, it seems like there's hardly anything else there. No interests, no opinions, I even question my sense of humor now.
I do have hope for myself though, and for you and all people like us. Because at least we know there's a problem, at least we're searching. I hope the best for you, my friend!
@MyChapstick
That makes a lot of sense, like a lot of what's felt like a "self" is stuff that was there for the sake of trying to get approval/support/care that you wanted and couldn't receive otherwise. And if you start peeling that away, there's a bit of an emptiness where there isn't much leftover in its place. 💜
Hello Erik!
Thanks for sharing about yourself.
Being a highly sensitive/ vulnerable narc myself (I prefer the former😁), I really understand almost all of what you experienced.
I feel that being a highly sensitive narc is like having a 'baby mindset' (or more precisely, an underdeveloped mindset) : immature identity, vulnerability, heavy sense of dependence on others, and of unreliability on themselves, a sense of entitlement, impulsivity, high sensitivity, etc.
Here are some resources (some are indirectly related) which you may find helpful (some of which was pointed out to me by the lovely Listeners here)..
https://www.verywellmind.com/i-dont-know-who-i-am-5186886
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.goodtherapy.org/blog/covert-narcissism-the-quiet-counterpart-to-narcissistic-personality-0822197/amp/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/psychoanalysis-unplugged/202206/face-narcissism-the-vulnerable-narcissist
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/compassion-matters/201711/is-narcissism-shaped-attachment-style
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/in-it-together/201708/narcissism-and-capacity-change
https://innertoxicrelief.com/how-to-stop-being-a-covert-narcissist/
https://nickwignall.com/negative-self-talk/
https://nickwignall.com/how-to-think-about-feelings/
Regarding having taken another person's advice in order to accept yourself, it is fine. I feel that it is not permanent; we shall naturally become more and more self-reliant, the more we learn about ourselves.
I firmly believe that with the right help, we can grow anew, build new pathways, repair and remodel existing ones, find growth, meaning and joy in real life experiences and ultimately become people we are proud of being!
Thanks for reading.
@jerryco789
Edit: just now came across a post, that said referring to people with NPD as narcissists or narcs is not proper; I wholeheartedly agree. I had unknowingly done so on my above post, and hereby correct the same.
Thank you.