Crisis policy and crisis page

QPR is a great program...major props to you on that! I took the gatekeeper course through my university and I think it would be a great fit for the 7 cups community especially since it's designed to be accessible to anyone without needing any former training or knowledge,

@Jill7cups So far the crisis referral links or guides i've seen here are not country specific. We have members from all over the world. It would be great if we have country specific hotlines that members can access at their relative countries.

@wonderousKiwi4229 agree, we are working on expanding the country specific lines and welcome anyone who knows of good ones to send them our way.

Part of the problem is that many good crisis lines today may be defunct tomorrow, so it may be in our best interest to help educate people on how to find one in their country versus have a list that may constantly be outdated? I don't know what the best thing to do is but welcome any ideas the community has.

I think the definition of crisis is too specific. There are numerous types of crises, as an example the provincial health systems has references to family crisis multiple times. If someone has been physically attacked is that not a crisis? A seizure that last longer than 1 minute and the person has no epilepsy diagnosis? A heart attack?

If this is going to include multiple types of crisis in the future, fine. Right now though it's all about suicidal thoughts. Why not just drop the crisis euphamism if this is will remain about suicdial thoughts?

The information in this document also contradicts the resources ie.

7cups -

What should someone do who is struggling with suicidal ideation?

We realize that this can be a challenge for someone who is experiencing suicidal ideation as well as for the listener. Members may find they have no one to talk to about it because programs like 7 Cups cannot help as volunteer Listeners are not trained to handle it, and Crisis Lines do not consider it a current crisis.

Crisis Text Line -

First, youre in crisis. That doesnt just mean suicide: its any painful emotion for which you need support. You text us at 686868.

I also find issues with some of the document.

First is the layout of the resources, it's confusing. For Canada the French line isn't mentioned. The text option is even though the site currently states: THE CHAT SUPPORT SERVICE IS CURRENTLY UNAVAILABLE.

Calling a number isn't always the appropriate choice either - what about 911 (or other emergency service numbers for other countries)?

If you are experiencing suicidal ideation and want help you should talk to a licensed therapist.

Does everywhere have licensed therapists? Not everyone can afford this either. Why not just say medical professional as this opens options up much more and a therapist may not be someone's first contact with mental health care.

we will always refer ANY suicidal talk to this page

This doesn't sound like the 7cups I know. If I have a friend who is suicidal can I not seek support here? What about someone who had a previous suicidal attempt but isn't currently experiencing suicidal ideation?

@AffyAvo there is no crisis text services in quebec for adults, you need to call the 1 866 277-3553 , and then only by phone.
if you text the 686868 and ask french, there is usually no responder available (i tried twice).
on crisisservicescanada is clearly states, additionnally to the "chat support service currently unavailable", for residents of quebec, call 1 866 appelle (277-3553)"

@TortueDesBois Hopefully a french text option will be made available soon, until then the number should be made clear here.

Also please be consistent with this. Currently, the group support rules explanation does not outline the same interpretation.

Gray areas - For Chatroom moderators

In 1-1 chats, we can support users who are having suicidal thoughts and have no active plan to end their lives. If they show that they are safe, ask them to connect with the listener instead of sending them to crisis resource.

@AffyAvo yes we need to update lots of things and appreciate everyone's patience while we do

There's already an referral below chats. I'm not sure what the post is actually trying to say.

@Jill7cups

I still really disagree with this statement: "The policy on crisis referral has been the same since 7 Cups was born in 2013"

It has not always been the same. I remember when Robin was here. There's also a post from Glen [L] that literally says we can support people as long as they aren't in active crisis: "We have many people use the site that are just in the fleeting or thinking part of the process. They check the box that indicates that they are not suicidal to use the service. In many instances, they are not actively suicidal. They are looking for emotional support and we can provide that for them." It also makes the majority of mentors look like we've been giving bad support to our mentees throughout the entirety of our time here at 7 cups.

As far as feedback goes, I'm not really sure what else to say. As an ambassador I was shown the draft of this post back in April and I already gave the above feedback. There are also many other pieces of feedback that were given at that time that have not been reflected in this policy. I am unsure if it is worth repeating as it seems y'all have made your decision?

All I can say is that I am disappointed, but of course will move forward in the future following this policy, and I'm appreciative that we now have some clarity on this topic.

[L] indicates listener only link

@MonBon appreciate your feedback and understand your frustration. This was not an easy task to undertake as a team, we started calling it an onion because there are so many layers and things to consider. I really appreciate your willingness to work with us on this even though it isn't not fully aligned with what you feel is best.

Two things I can speak on that I know don't solve anything but I hope help clarify a little. Mentors do an amazing job and work with the information they have. While the policy has technically always been the same it is obvious we got away from it at some point, and as staff we should have recognized the risk of this sooner. This is not on the Mentors, this is on us.

Glen's post is indeed confusing. Upon reflection within the team it was determined he was trying to say to gently refer, not to abruptly refer. I can see how this post can be read either way. Ultimately we have consulted with several therapists and they unilateraly agree that someone suffering from suicidal ideation should really talk to a trained professional as there are serious risks.

@MonBon @jill7cups

I just wanted to back monbon here that it was always taught that we take passive chats. Even if we did get away from that as stated in your reply, I do remember always handing down that information that it's passive vs. active. Not that that matters anymore really, but I thought I'd chime in. It's good you consulted professionals about this. I hope this announcement makes everything more clear cut for everyone :)

@Jill7cups

I understand the difficulty and I am okay with the way moving forward. My complaint was mostly just with the presentation (i.e. that line about it always being the policy).

There are still a few wrinkles to work out, such as clarity of language for self harm or grief and updating several posts, as others have mentioned.

I am sincerely appreciative of the clarity on the topic, regardless of my personal feelings on the matter.

I deal with chronic suicidal thoughts since childhood.
Suicide hotlines turn me away pretty quickly, letting me know they have more importants call because I'm not in immediate danger. because I have no intention to act on those thoughts or any serious plan, then they refuse to talk to me.
I am seeing professionals and use the proper resources when I know a bad chat could be potentially triggering for me if I get a bad listener.
I know my limits and when I'm stable enough for coming here and talk to listeners.
It's very frustrating if I no longer can seek emotional support with intrusive thoughts on here when I'M SAFE and without intention to hurt anyone. and I'm not a danger for myself or for others in sense of laws, neither in danger from myself or from others.
it is just one more place where I'm totally censored.

@TortueDesBois

This is my own opinion, but I'd say it's a liability issue. Yes it's important to be there for people and listen, but it's also important to know the limits. This isn't a crisis site. Unless someone has training in their everyday life, having someone's possible life in their hands can be a lot of pressure. I actually 100% understand where you are coming from as noted by my previous forum comments on the subject, but I do understand their side too. There is just no way to know if someone is actually safe, even if they say they are. If listeners are taking such chats, there comes a lot of possible backlash. This isn't just on the company, but on the listener. The untrained volunteer listener is going to have to take on any guilt associated that might come with if the member hurts themselves. It's easier, at least for now, to just say all crisis chats get referred than suss out what qualifies as passive vs. active or who determines the criteria, etc. Plus, listeners feeling awful if something happens is not worth it.

From a compassion standpoint, I get where you're coming from. From a skill assessment and business standpoint, I get where they are coming from.

Do I think that people should be able to talk if they have no chance of harming themselves? Yes, ideally that would be nice. I 100% understand wanting to talk, but not being in crisis. I have been like that myself before.

Do I think there's any way to really measure that? Not really, not on the internet unless you are a trained professional who can triage that type of situation, and even then maybe you could get it wrong (as you can in the real world, we're only human).

I think they did their research and this is the conclusion by experts in the field. If that's what they say, then I trust this is probably the best course of action.

@EvelyneRose yes i think so its just liability, insurances and protect themselves legally

@Jill7cups yayyy this is awesome great work

here is the link where it send us when we are being censored: https://www.7cups.com/crisis.php
you can see by yourself they all are USA based only, the only "international link" is a link OUT OF DATE, which never update the resources, and all only by phone, no text or chat services. A lot of desual resources (that sometimes no longer exist !), and doesnt cover all the countries.
if you want provide only 1 international link, please at least put one that update the links. as a member being refered to a place without the resources we need, is just being pushed away and be left without actual ressource when members are in a very hard time.
it really just look like a sheet for not taking responsibility (legally) but not for help people to find resources.

@Jill7cups @Laura

There was a lot of work put into the 7cups wiki at: https://www.7cups.com/wiki/hotlines-crisis-resources/ which seam not to be linked anywhere other than under the Community link. Please remove my name as the owner of the section since I don't have the time to help with that part of the wiki anymore since many hours were put into that from @Gracey and myself and it seams that a lot of people don't even know about it.

This is a great addition, I really think it will help us support the members who we personally cannot!

Thank you for letting us into this secret!! Looking forward to hearing the rest of the project in due course! :)

@Jill7cups

Thank you for you work on this. This is most helpful

@Jill7cups

Thank you very much for this information Jill, it's a great help.

@Jill7cups I have spent some times in the chatrooms, for over a year, even if I am more active on the forums nowadays. There are many different kind of people coming in there. There are people who are really disheartened and have a general aversion towards the crisis/suicide hotlines available to them due to past experiences. Some people have not tried those yet and open to it. You never know tho.

Generally a referral is always sent out and, at least I, always try to gently direct people to the direction of professional help however as long as they are around I usually try to keep them company and just keep them distracted if needed and try to support them.

I am not sure what exactly the rule is there but that is just my experience and something that generally feels right. I would not feel comfortable just giving a list of resources to someone personally and tell that that I cannot help them and will not support them.

Many people have mentioned here gray zones, and a lot of cases kind of fall into that anyway. This is just my personal experience and feedback. I think we should always have these resources at hand but try to be supportive as long as it is not triggering for us, of course, because even in a supporter and listener role our mental health has to come first.

@redmark appreciate your point of view! This is a complicated thing for sure. We need to be compassionate and make people feel welcome, but also need to be sure people who need crisis related help find it in the appropriate places. It is so tough! I really commend all our volunteers who try to navigate this with our members.

@Jill7cups

Is there a policy in place for members to utilise if their listener becomes suicidal?

I emailed the community email and I sent through a listener feedback form. However I'm really worried about them. As they asked me not to leave them but are now not messaging me back anymore.

@Kibs Hello there Kibs! Listeners are expected to maintain professionalism and should know better. You're not obligated to give support to them as it's not your duty as a member to give support to a listener, more so if they're suicidal. If a listener is suicidal, they should be reported and their account should be put on hold for 2 weeks. It's actually stated here but since you're a member I'm afraid you won't be able to see the listener community guidelines.

It's so nice of you to be concerned abour your listener and let's just hope they've reached out for help now that they're not responding to you. Good job in emailing community@7cups.com or leaving them a review stating that they're suicidal just to ensure that they won't be seeking support from other members when experiencing suicidal ideation. Thank you!

@Erato

Thanks for responding! Prior to this, he was a good listener and really helped me a lot. I really hope he did seek help.

@Kibs you can always PM a Community Manager or email community so we can check in on them.

@Jill7cups

I'm hoping my email or review were recieved as his listener account no longer appears to be active. I hope he is getting the help he needs.

@Jill7cups

Good to know that I can message a Community Manager in the future. Thank you. :)

Hello! This is Freya :). Just checking in today

Hi everyone

@Jill7Cups @7Cupscommunity

Hello. Lets say a member is in crisis, connected to a crisis hotline site and is in queue for talking to crisis counselor on a crisis hotline. The member is asking us to stay with them while they wait.
In this specific case, where they are using the appropriate resources but just waiting in queue, do we still have to end the chat, or can we stay with them while they wait?

@Jill7Cups

Thank you for taking the time to go over this again. I appreciate your help with it. :-)