A Quick Critique of 7Cups.
Hello all!
I decided to make a video about the flaws of 7 Cups. This is not to say I despise 7 Cups, Im very thankful for what it has given me. Nonetheless, I feel the need to bring some issues to the foreground. We all enjoy complaining about 7 Cups, but I feel like there arent enough proper discussions being held about the topic.
Here is the link to my video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6srkaOi2b0&t=10s
There were other issues I wanted to tackle, but I wanted to make the video at least a little digestable. And moreover, I wouldnt know exactly what to say, as I havent experienced issues like moderator burnout.
And, as much as I sympathize with the Listeners that are on the receiving end of trolling, I feel like this isnt a problem we can fix, as wed be sacrificing accessibility for security if we made it more difficult for trolls to continuously make accounts.
Another issue Ive heard about is misogyny, but again, I dont know much about this topic. Id love to learn more, however.
I encourage discussion in the comments. Feel free to add a comment if you feel there is an issue not yet talked about.
Big thanks to Erato and ShiottaBeezquirtin for helping me make this post. I disabled the comments on the video so we cant share contact information. Please PM if this post breaks the Forum Guidelines in some way, Ill reply as fast as I can!
Tags:
@ArwaS @Erato @Yendi @Hope @Diandra @IsraNMSL @HuggypinkBear @Moon @lucidpanic @shyguy82 @NameNotTaken @kindSoul10 @TheSciKid @Rose @blossombreathe @EnigmaticPetrichor @vroomvrooom @Bushraaa @Realityescaping @juniperstarfish1 @Zaracaz @silverIceCream21 @notsergo @Nada @BunnieLuv @SookyChooky @CompassionateListener88 @canadagranger7 @DoctorFantasticles @laurabat @creativeField7705 @Munkeh @NancyyB @supercrash4e @TwinCasper @brilliantIceCream97 @CampIsLoving @conscientiousPineapple1782 @laserpowerr @scenicwindow @LizzieDarcy @ConnorSmith @AveryLove @HappyKitten123 @ashashley1 @Isha
@Glue Thanks for tagging, GluGlu :O I might be looking at the video once I have free time tomorrow :)
@BunnieLuv Of course, take your time!
@Glue Great video and thanks for sharing. I had a difficult time finding helpful information on the 7 cups forums as it is very disorganized as there are so many threads of varing degree of importance. I think the forum needs to do a clean up.
From my experience, most people expect the listener to give some sort of advice. Most of them complain when they don't receive it. Maybe 7 cups can make it clear that this is not a site for getting advice from listeners? I agree with Glue that 7 cups' advertising and marketing promotion is quite misleading. Therapy is not free. And listerners are not therapist.
7 cups should warn people of known dangers on 7 cups such as: trolls, sexual predators, people who are cluster B, scammers, etc and communication with those are at the member/listener's own risk.
I have also encountered some instances that members or visitor lied about their age to talk to me, but later on told me that they are younger than 13 during chat. I find text based chattiing can be full of such pitfalls as you don't know whether the person on the other side is truthful and honest.
@HuggypinkBear Thank you! It is often expected that you'll approach a member with advice. What I usually try to do is provide a suggestion that looks enough like advice, so they won't endlessly question me. It's a difficult balance to strike, but it yields results.
Example:
M - "hey! I'd like some advice on what to do if someone's bullying me"
L - "Hello! Bullying is difficult to endure for anyone, and often has many reasons behind it. It might be helpful to involve your teachers or parents, and question the bully why they're doing it, to make them aware of the damage they're causing."
Perhaps not the best example, but the key point remains the same. "It might be helpful" and "try to" are both things you can use instead of directly telling the member what to do. The key is to not command, but to suggest.
About the trolls: I wholeheartedly agree. Too many listeners come into the Listener Support Room seemingly unprepared or confused by the things veteran listeners deal with every day.
@Glue I agee with what you said. Many listeners have no idea what they are signing up for and what to do as the guidelines as to what to do is buried under subcommunities and threads.
I remember many listeners asked about how to deal with people who are suicidal in chat and finally a good kind person created a flow chat and make a big forum post about it and ask people to upvote it so the thread won't get buried. Before, related information was in bits and pieces buried in the forum. Now there is the bot detecting triggering words in chat and give warnings. So techology has helped in this instant But after many how years that 7 cups has been in operation, 5 or 6 years? Even the flow chat should have been given out to listeners on the get go so that we can help per 7 cups' vision and rules and not up to our own devices while we sweat. For people who do care, hearing someone saying they are suicidal can be very disconcerting.
Safety of the listeners is of great concern as well. Many posts are about the quality of the listners. But that is tied in with the quality of the members/visitors. If 7 cups does not ban trolls or instruct listeners how to identify and protect themselves from trolls, then who would sign up to be listeners just to be trolled by members or visitors? Most likely those who are trolls themeslves and treat this site as a sex chat site, tinder or a fun little game.
@HuggypinkBear
I don't understand why "cluster B" is considered a danger. People in that group have mental disorders and need help. They shouldn't be categorized in the same group as trolls, sexual predators, and scammers.
@Glue Thank you for tagging, Glubo. That was a great video.
I've always tried to discuss this with someone, and I'm glad you addressed it very well. I really hope this will bring a change, a bit, at least.
I do feel like what can be expected from a listener has been mentioned a few times, so I'm a bit surprised to hear that listeners vs. therapists aren't differentientied.
ie. wiki in the new member orientation - https://www.7cups.com/wiki/what-can-i-expect-from-a-listener/
Newbie Hub forum - https://www.7cups.com/forum/NewbieHub_27/Informationaboutusing7Cups_792/WhatCanIExpectFromA7CupsListener_5609/1/
Here's an ad page for the therapists - https://www.7cups.com/online-therapy/
I would like to see quality for listeners to improve. I have had listeners act very inappropriately and then I see they are chatting with more than 5 others.
@AffyAvo There is differentiation, absolutely, but you have to go looking for it, in my opinion. It's not the first impression people get and that can give rise to high expectations of listeners.
What you said about listener quality can't be said enough. The amount of listeners that seem to be inexperienced is pretty staggering. I'm not sure if this is an issue of accessibility (the fact that they can't find the right listener resources to learn from) or an issue of apathy (the fact that they simply aren't bothered to read through listener resources/courses). Or maybe some completely different alternative.
@Glue It's been a while since I've gone through the site intro - basically what happens when there are no cookies from the site saved. I'm not sure if that type of information is included.
I think it will always be a bit of a problem that guests/new members won't necessarily have realistic expectations because they come here in distress, so even with a good intro it can't be expected that newcomers would pay attention.
That's where listeners who have paid attention to what's available can help. There are some good ways to respond to advice type of questions that aren't "I can't give advice" but if the member/guest seems quite insistent on that's what they want/need the listener can explain what they can and can't do, while referring to this information plus they can also refer the person to a more appropriate resource for what they do want.
oh, and before I forget, thank you for sharing those links!
Personally, I found most of this podcast rather unclear.
1. 7 Cups is advertised to be an alternative to therapists.
I haven't seen any advertising of that kind. Not ever. Can you tell me where I can see some?
The following discussion seemed to wander off topic, and advertising wasn't mentioned much again. I found myself agreeing with some of the points, but disagreeing with others.
2. 7 Cups fosters dependency
I can see how that might be sort of true in theory, but I see little evidence of it in practice. Where could I look to find evidence of this dependency?
Again I found the following discussion confusing, with its focus on how therapists work to a treatment plan. In fact not all therapists work to a treatment plan (which is often a problem for their clients).
7 Cups listeners don't use a treatment plan because we don't provide treatment.
3. Finding a good listener as a member
I disagree with a lot of this. I think the best indicator of a good listener is the opinions of other members, but I agree that many members end up with poor listeners because they don't know how to find a good one, or don't think they have to.
At the same time, newbie listeners have to start somewhere, and if all our members insist on chatting to experienced listeners the system will collapse.
4. Thank you 7 Cups
I'm personally grateful to 7 Cups for the opportunity to be a listener. At the same time I have contingency plans for when I get trolled and banned. 7 Cups is far from the only place I can volunteer and use active listening.
Moderators take on way too many tasks and burn out? I have no idea to what extent this is true. Even if it was true in the past, InternMods should improve things, I imagine.
Overall, I felt the podcast lacked evidence and was disappointingly negative in tone. Assuming the problems it identified are real, it would have been good to have heard about some vision of the future in which the problems have been solved, and about how we can get from where we are now to where we want to be.
@Glue
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie Thank you for replying! When I meant that 7 Cups is advertised to be an alternative to therapists, I was referring to sentences like:
When you search up 7 Cups on google: "Need Help? Find someone to talk to for online therapy & free counseling,"
or like the 7 Cups video "7 Cups - How it works", where they claim listeners go through a "robust training programme".
On a brighter note, the homepage of 7cups (when you log out) is, in my opinion, a better description of what 7 Cups has to offer: "7 Cups connects you to caring listeners for free emotional support." The emphasis here is on "free emotional support"; this doesn't come with the implications "free counseling" comes with. The implication is that we can equate a listener that breezed through an introductory course with a licensed counselor/therapist. For the sake of providing evidence that this isn't just my own interpretation but one any regular person can get, I've asked around (IRL) what people thought of the phrase "free counseling" in complete isolation, without knowing what 7 Cups is. The answer was often something along the lines of "Is this like one of those free sessions you get to see what's up? Like an intake?"
(To quickly add something, I think Affyavo made a great point about the fact that members come here in distress, and so they'll take any alternative. I wonder how we can account for that? I feel like that's the main counterargument against what I've said in the first section of the video.)
"Robust training programme" also implies that all listeners meet some standard of quality. This time, when I asked members what their experience was with a listener, it was a mixed bag. Some had extremely negative experiences that were more often than not sexual in nature. Some had decent experiences, some great. Those with the most extreme opinions (whether it be great or horrible) were seemingly the most experienced users on the site. This is just a personal observation. Point is, the training programme isn't robust in the slightest. The main trend was that experiences were often bad until they could find the small pool of listeners able to help. I wish there were more people using your unofficial training guides, honestly. You did a phenomenal job.
----------------------
As for the rest, I can't comment on the dependency point, as a lot of the evidence here is anecdotal, and I don't want to expose PMs. But fair point regardless on the lack of evidence, I should have done a better job incorporating that into the video.
I agree that the opinions of other members is a great indicator for how good the listener is. I don't think that goes against what I said about forum posts, group chats and verification, however.
Excellent point about the fact that newbies have to start somewhere, fully agree with that, and I wish I included that counterargument into the video.
I'm sorry if the video appeared too negative, I tried to balance it out with the third and fourth sections of the video, but clearly that wasn't enough.
Thank you for the critical look, I really appreciate it. I'm glad this discussion is going somewhere.
"Need Help? Find someone to talk to for online therapy & free counseling,"
This seems to be saying you can get therapy at 7 Cups, which is true. It's not saying 7 Cups is an alternative to therapists. It's saying there are therapists here at 7 Cups, and there are.
It's also saying you can get free counseling at 7 Cups, which is true. The kind of thing that 7 Cups listeners do was originally called counseling when it was first developed by Carl Rogers in around 1940, and it has been called counseling ever since.
"robust training programme"
This seems to be saying that there is a training programme at 7 Cups, which is true. And that the programme is solid in some way, which is also true. It has remained pretty much unchanged for years, despite extensive criticism from many people, including me. If anything, I would complain that it's too robust and therefore too resistant to change.
I do agree that it would be possible, theoretically, to make many improvements at 7 Cups. In practice, however, I feel that here in the community we are like fish in a glass tank wishing the tank could be moved to a nicer location. We can't move the tank from inside it. What we say isn't heard through the glass.
@Glue
Charlie
@Glue thanks for the video. I liked how professionally you analysed 7 cups from your point of view and how you offered constructive critics and on top of that you guided new members to find a good listener.
I've thought about the things you said and I understand where you are coming from. The things you mentioned I can't deny.
I'd like to share my thoughts.
I think the answers aren't simple in context of a big picture. We live in a society where our economy is driven by money. Someone always has to pay the bills somehow.
So everything starts and falls with getting enough money to pay the costs. One way to get money is with payed services and donations.
You mentioned "Blurred lines between therapists and listeners for advertising reasons (selling payed service)".
I agree the banners might give the wrong impression that you can get free therapy right from the start. (See Initial view from mobile phone Vs view when you scroll down).
You mentioned : "Advice : we can't give advice because we are no professionals."
That's true but it's not necessarily a sign of low quality or a bad things. I believe it's even professional to not give advice when you don't have the full picture. Advice might be harmful and puts the listener and 7 cups at risk of lawsuits.
Even in therapy giving advice is disputed.
You talked about the fact Listeners are no professionals therefore they have to refer suicidal chats to crisis lines. That's true but 7 cups offers its services worldwide and crisis lines are equipped with different tools like calling emergency services. We can't do that and listeners are recruited from the member base. Without proper supervision, training and legal support and the necessary tools I think it's unlikely to offer high quality crisis chats. We support people with suicidal ideation but it's a very difficult topic and volunteers should be comfortable when taking the chats. It's okay to decline them and refer to other listeners or resources.
You also discussed that 7 cups creates dependency on the site by rewarding interactions (cheers, badges, ...). That's an interesting point. That's an interesting point. I think rewards can be a great tool to reach people the ropes without making them feel they are studying (gamification). But yes, I agree it can be used addictively.
You also spoke about Poor boundaries (7 cups motivates listeners to check-in on members regurarely). We have regular members here that need more long term support. Some will benefit from recruiting long term listeners. I've seen trainings stress on the importance of strong boundaries. Maybe training needs improvement.
You also mentioned : "No termination plan: recurrent interactions between members and 7 cups is encouraged." Listeners offer emotional support. We don't fix problems, that's a big difference to therapy or coaching. There's a guide on setting goals .
So, yeah that's what you made me think about. Thanks for sharing your point of view. And thanks for reading mine. :)
I can speak for myself, I signed up to be a listener per 7 cups' rules. So I expect 7 Cups to give me the official guidance when I needed. BUT as per this thread alone there are some other listener or members who insist on giving his/her 2 cents, so what gives????
What is 7 cups about??? Is it RayCharles' vision??? Or what??? Laura rarely makes a point, but RayCharles and the likes keep puttuing in their 2 cents, for alot of the outsiders, people may think he is in charge. I think if he is in charge, he has to answer alot of questions.
@HuggypinkBear no he is only giving his opinion just like so many of us are hoping that someone notices he is someone that is trying to bring attention to something that should be changed i dont think he cares as much as you do about his imortance maybe thats for him to answer or not answer
@jennysunrise8 Thanks. I understand why you said what you said but you if read my interaction with him you will know that he is something else.
I do appreciate your kindness. I am here today because I believe in 7 cups. [content removed by AffyAvo], I would have quit last year.
@jennysunrise8 True. He does not have to agree with my answer. you are right. [edited by FM Erato to remove unsupportive content]
If you mean me, I am definitely not in charge of anything 
Even so, if you have a lot of questions you'd like me to answer then I am happy to do my best to answer them. You could PM me, ask here in @Glue 's thread, or start a new thread of your own and tag me.
In this Feedback forum we are invited to "Tell us what you think about 7 Cups of Tea and the features we offer." So I, personally, am not surprised when people give their 2 cents here.
@HuggypinkBear
Charlie
Can someone please tell me who is on profile picture patrol??? Please. Thank you. 7 cups should tell people about these things. So many of us have no clue and if someone send us a message, we have no resort but to believe them. There are no concrete riules. Please help us.
@HuggypinkBear From the forum guidelines - Unsupportive content including targeting or attacking other users in the community is not allowed. Disagreements may happen, but always maintain a respectful tone and try to move the conversation forward in an on-topic and constructive way. Sometimes this means agreeing to disagree.
I have deleted some of your posts which violated this rule. If you have an issue with someone because you feel they behaved inappropriately, there are appropriate ways to handle that, such as a L-L report or emailing community@7cups.com
@AffyAvo
thanks I will check up with higher authority.
Here's the list of those who are part of the safety patrol team and who have the safety patrol team badge. To know more about the safety patrol team and what they do, you may want to check out this post. I believe that these things are posted publicly and can be accessed by anyone so I'm not sure why it appeared to you as if 7cups is not informing you about these.
Once your profile is flagged, safety coordinators (@Heather225 and @Power) should reach out to you if your profile is going against the community guidelines. You can also read the guidelines here including the guidelines for picture, bio and username.
PS. If you want to report a specific listener, you may fill out the listener-listener behaviour report just like what @AffyAvo suggested. Please don't post any derogatory or inappropriate comments against any users in a public forum - I have deleted your latest post for that reason.
@HuggypinkBear
Inner peace is the new success.
@Erato Thanks so much !! Sorry I forgotten you pizza person. You were the one who made the suidical flowchart, thanks so much. Well, I am a nobody, I haven't even volunteer so much on 7 cups. [edited by FM Erato to remove chat details and unsupportive content] I was so sad. My profile pic was a pink teddy bear.
Good, I can send you my screen capture of the interaction of Rarely Charlie and me????
I am not very high up on 7 cups. I don't know if it is in my place to vent or I am just a little ant and shoudl just shut up. I don't know....
I remembered you were the nice person that put up a flow chart for suicidal people ( so sorry, I remember Pizza but not your name), I think you have some empathy in this sort of things???
I have screen shorts to send to 7 cups, just telle me whom to send the inapprorpriate remarks from Rarely Charlie. He scared me for sure by the messages he sent.
It's not actually me who made the suicide flowchart you're talking about. I just share it with other listeners who I think would benefit from it.
Please don't send me the screenshots. We have proper report channels for that. Just like what's mentioned in the previous posts, you may email community@7cups.com or fill out the listener-listener report form. You may also speak with the safety coordinators directly if you think that your safety was compromised. I'm sorry you have had a rough encounter with someone on here but I hope that everything is dealt professionally and no further conflicts arise. Posting it here in the forums won't do anything good at all. It's better to submit a report and let the admins handle the situation.
Have a nice day today!
@HuggypinkBear
Inner peace is the new success.
@Erato Thanks so much!!
We need to have clear posting like this. [edited by FM Erato to remove chat details and unsupportive content] But I didn't know. I as young and dumb.
Thanks so much. I really appreciate it. Erato.
Young members need to be told what to do. How do we learn if we are not told? I would rather you told me that some random person on forums.
Thanks Erato. Happy Valentines Day!!!!!
HuggyPinkBear
Announcements and resources are always provided in the forums, you may want to navigate the Safety & Knowledge community c: Sometimes, you just gotta look for them yourself, or you can also visit the listener support room if you have any concerns or questions. Educating yourself isn't a bad idea.
I'm also not in the right position to give you a feedback on your profile. It's totally up to the safety coordinators to decide if the profile needs to be edited/updated to much appropriate content.
@HuggypinkBear
Inner peace is the new success.
7 cups should have all these figured out. Who are in charge and what are the rules.So that we don't have evil people who think they can harass others via messages or forum responses. And let us know who to email to when there is a problem. Very simple. But sorry, I didn't know before today.
But thanks several people above, I will make my case and proffer the evidence. Thanks so much. I want to make 7 cups a better place and I dont't want to be bullied again.
@HuggypinkBear If you familize yourself with the rules, that will help. The rules for different areas often explain what to do and have the connected forms.
For example https://www.7cups.com/about/communityGuidelines.php - this information in this link appears different if you're on a member account vs. a listener account. The chatroom group rules linked in each chatroom have links to forms that are relevant to those spaces, etc.
@Glue how am i tagged?
