Missing a toxic friendship
After several years of friendship, this week me and a friend's relationship ended. Weeks before things had been tense and we were trying to patch things up but she was never honest or open about any communication.
Upon review, she had been playing into my poor mental health (validating ideas such as helplessness; for context I have severe bipolar) to keep me attached and dependent on her. She said she had a fear of abandonment and didn't want me to ever leave. She'd use many psychological abuse tactics on me when she was upset, and ultimately shift the blame of our friendship's demise. Many I've talked to have pointed out tactics she'd used that I hadn't even noticed. On ending it, she seemed apathetic to me, while I was devestated. I wasn't an angel either, as I would call her out on things she'd do (such as stonewall, lie, exacerbate my paranoia on purpose) which would start arguments. She said she couldn't handle that anymore and it gave her nightmares. She justifyed her stonewalling, lying, and gaslighting on how she was raised and to act differently causes too much anxiety. In short, our relationship was not healthy. Fairly, she acknolleged we weren't healthy for each other at the end.
Despite objectively knowing that, I can't help but miss being friends with her. I'm not entirely sure why. I don't know what to do other than be broken up about it. I blame myself pretty often and feel like I'd do anything to have our friendship back because I'd forgive everything she'd do. I feel like I don't care how I'd be personally treated and would be any way she'd want me to be.
A big part of it is that over the years I'd isolated myself from all of my close friends for her, now finding myself alone while she had other support systems to fall on.
I'm not really sure how to cope with all of this.
@FleetingBardSong
Im really sorry that you're going through this. I have delt with something somewhat similar before, and it's hard. Just know that you are not alone. It gets better, and we are here for you!!
@FleetingBardSong
Missing a friendship is normal and even if the friendship was toxic. However, it is time to start taking care of yourself by learning to like yourself. It sounds like she was not so good for you and a low-quality friend who you didn't need in your life.
I have been in several friendships that were toxic myself and I always felt like I was always on me toes with them along with questioning the things they would say or do.
@Summershy
Thank you. That's very wise input. I often overlook self-love/worth as an aspect of coping with problems such as this one. It's easy for me forget how much of an impact it makes. Thank you for seeing that. I appreciate it.
@FleetingBardSong
It does not matter if the relationship was not healthy as it is still a relationship as you did things together for x amount of years. It's even harder if you were close to this person and suddenly she is not there.
I went through something similar with a toxic female friend who had shown signs of dumping me on multiple occasions. However, right before she did, she love bombed me by inviting me to her home from Christmas and showered me with gifts. Then the next week, when I had my New Year's Brunch, she stonewalled me in front of my other guests and seemed to put on heirs. Not long after that, she cut me from her life and dropped several hints that it was over.
Though she tried to ghost me when I texted her, I had to pull teeth about what was going on and she was willing to tell me that she felt the relationship was unhealthy,
Her issues:
1. She is extremely self-centered and self-absorbed
2. She had always been jealous of me
3. She is extremely manipulative
4. She likes to get her way all the time
5. She is very competitive
@FleetingBardSong
However, I have missed this ex-friend too but it was only when I sat down with her 5 tears ago to find out why she cut he from her life that she said some very mean and immature things to me that was extremely hurtful that she anger set it.
@Summershy
*Said
@Summershy
That is absolutely awful. I'm so sorry you had to go through with that. That sounds a lot like narcissistic abuse. I can relate in some ways, but cannot imagine having that extreme of an uplift then drop near the end.
The relationship with my friend started out with love bombing and ended with withdrawing affection. In the beginning she'd show excessive care and taking extra steps (as if she were an extremely enthusiastic caregiver). She had also shown up after knowing I'd just gotten out of a previous bad relationship.
When problems started, I began to feel yo-yo'd. She'd made it often feel like our problems were solved when it came to arguments, then she'd bring them up months later. Finally the cycle was happening week by week which ended up making me relapse (bipolar related). She would absolutely convince me that things were alright, then begin stonewalling and gaslighting again.
She'd make untrue excuses to explain why she'd have been gone, but I think she purposely gave weak excuses that were obvious lies-- to encourage my paranoia given the conflicting information. If I brought it up, she would both confirm it and then later attack me for being 'paranoid'-- or as she put it, I was making her a pin-cusion for paranoia (despite her confirming that it wasn't paranoia to begin with).
@FleetingBardSong
My ex-friend was what one expert therapist referred to as the vulnerable victim type of narcissist where she played the victim card before she met her husband along with whining because "She didn't know what to do with her life." During those days, I was not allowed to talk about good things going for me because it wasn't "fair to her."
Then when she finally met her husband, she was always doing what she could to make me jealous of her all the time by trying to prove that she was superior to me.
@FleetingBardSong
I totally understand where you're coming from. It's natural to miss a person you were so close to for so many years. It's the bond that you guys had which might be making you miss her so much. I had a toxic friendship as well, very dissimilar to yours but I relate to you when you say you can't help but miss it.
All I would tell you is that it might get better with time because it did for me as well. I realized that it's okay to let friendships die sometimes. Your feelings of missing her are totally valid, justified and normal :)
@Affliction1 Thank you. I think time will do a great deal of healing too. I just wish that was sooner rather than later, but I can thank that I'll feel better in the long run (one of the most important facts to remember).
@FleetingBardSong
It's my pleasure ❤️ Yeah, I understand why you feel that way. It's human nature to want to get rid of the pain as soon as possible. I'm glad you're hopeful about it getting better in the long run :)
Good luck to you!
@FleetingBardSong uggggh these types of people. She's emotionally abusive but can't see it in herself. Trying to communicate with her repeatedly only to have her exacerbate your paranoia is like.... gross. You miss her because she was a large part of your life and you don't have anything else right now, but it sounds like she added nothing to it. Good riddance. She'll get hers.
@dworth257
Yeah, you're right. I'd try bringing up some of her flaws because they'd hurt me and to communicate that she could improve herself (maybe the self-improvement was too forward of me), but it never helped.
I'm fairly certain that she believes anything that upsets or makes her uncomfortable means that her opinion is right. On top of it she seemed pretty entitled (I hate using that word). For example, different families and a supervisor at her college had invited her into their homes to live for free so she wouldn't have to make the trip home (that and her house wasn't the greatest of places). They'd gone so far as to help her get eye appointments for glasses, and dental trips (they paid for all of it). They requested she help out some around the house (such as doing some laundry and helping clean the basement) and she refused. She later complained to me that she had to go back home because she wasn't helping out enough. She said that she shouldn't have to pick up for other people and clean up after them because it's not her mess. I'll note that she has nothing to hold her back from helping (no disability that impedes those functions).
@FleetingBardSong ohhhh yeah ya see I feel like that changes things. Self improvement suggestions definitely should be kept to oneself ya know ? Imagine somebody critiquing your personality? Instead ya gotta focus on the relationship itself, I.e. actions that can be improved rather than personality traits. Of course, that means that you will have to be open to receiving hurtful criticism as well. You also have to remember that your opinions aren't necessarily right either, but rather the truth falls somewhere in the middle. You made it sound like you communicated while she manipulated you and used paranoia tactics against you. I feel like in reality she probably just wasn't open to suggestions and it sounds like you might have crossed some serious boundaries. To be honest I have to agree with her about the helping out thing. I have been in her shoes, you don't want to go home but done want to live with them either. People act like if they do something for you, you owe them more than is really due or you are able to give. Of course, paying for her doctors appointments is quite nice, I was never in that situation. I have to say I agree th ya she shouldn't be expected to clean up after people. Try to look at it from this perspective ... that's a little beyond paying her dues with money and doing some chores, especially if the others didn't really participate either. It falls into -- we gave you a place to say, do all the work. Kind of condescending, you know ? Like indentured servitude when you didn't even expect the "help." But I am speaking more from my own situation than hers specifically and admit I am a bit triggered. Reality probably falls somewhere between your perspective and hers, but regardless, if the relationship is toxic it might as well end. I'm not saying she was right at all and obviously exacerbating your paranoia is not okay ( I'm taking this to mean that she knows you are paranoid about things and specifically says or does things to poke the bear, like a joke.) Gaslighting isn't okay either though context is needed because people having different versions of events isn't necessarily gaslighting, which it is sometimes mistaken for. However, if she deliberately tries to make you feel insane, that is absolutely gaslighting. I think the key with that is whether the person "gaslighting" knows the other is right but vehemently denies it or refuses to acknowledge that its real, like the idea it came from of the husband lowering the lights and telling his wife she was imagining things. If she said something untrue and then admits to reality, that is not gaslighting. If her intent behind saying something was misinterpreted, that is also not gaslighting -- it's different perspectives, both of which are valid. Stonewalling is an unhealthy response but not necessarily emotionally abusive. Most people stonewall at some point in their lives, though it is very harmful and definitely shouldn't be done. Again, I'm not taking her side, but I do find a lot of these things can be misinterpreted. At the end of the day as well, your relationship with her should be focused on how you treat each other, not how she reacted to her home and family situation. The truth is, you can't really know what goes on in her life, emotional world, or home -- and it shouldn't be factored into your decision. Truly the best thing you can do is strike up an honest and compassionate/empathetic conversation. But don't critique somebody's personality, that's not right. Come at it with a more curious perspective. Why, from her point of view, does she act like that? And in turn you may receive the same respectful consideration. In relationships, somebody may be more at fault, but nobody is innocent, nor can we read each other's minds (thank god, imagine the boundaries crossed and trauma that would come out of that!) Self improvement suggestions ... I'd definitely say that is overstepping and I would stonewall someone in that situation as well. But suggestions around ACTIONS rather than PERSONALITY can be fruitful -- though shouldn't be forced on somebody unless they directly affect you, I.e. suggestions surrounding the friendship. Your first post made it sound like this friend was purposely cruel to provoke, mock and bully you, but I can see it was subjective and is much more nuanced than that. If you truly miss her, try to reach out. If not, let it go and move on. Again, not trying to take her side -- you absolutely have the right to feel the way that you do. And that's what this website is for! Venting is good. But if you truly are trying to look at the friendship with honesty, this is my response. Again, vent away if that's what you need to do! I've done it myself and it helps anonymously. But yeah if you really are trying to analyze the friendship, I'd say you are both probably right. It may be best to let it go. Like romantic relationships, people can be entirely different with the right friendship partner. Best of luck, you seem like a truly thoughtful and intuitive/empathetic person!
@dworth257
Personally I would accept it if I was critiqued on my poor personality traits. I'm also constantly asking for feedback. Especially when it comes to gentle suggestions regarding abusive actions toward nd how it effectes a person mentally. I give it a lot of thought before approach. I believe stonewalling in situations when it comes to one person hurt or triggered, while the other isn't is definitely abusive.
It was definitely gaslighting. She would outright call me paranoid, but wait weeks to admit what she did.
There were many more things she did that I don't feel comfortable posting in a public space.
A domestic abuse therapist confirmed to me her she was very abusive toward me. These weren't missunderstandings. She fit almost to a T of a narcissistic abuser. I was told not to make contact for my own health.
I also never meant to insinuate that my opinions were always correct, just that she never would give thought to anything others suggested and was vehemently persistant about being right.
She did not pay rent nor did she want to. They paid for all of her doctors appointments, optometry appointments and food.
Being friends with her almost going on 8 years, I certainly did know about her homelife and pretty much every detail and upbringing. She also revealed personally traits such as sadism and need for the control of people in which I never critiqued of her. Only ever did I bring up things that either hurt or triggered me. With that, I wont go on.
@FleetingBardSong Hey friend, I just don't want to give the wrong impression -- I really wasnt critiquing you or trying to tell you that your perception of her was wrong. I just wasn't sure if you wanted to truly repair it, and when someone does, compromise & middle ground is always necessary ! So that's kind of why I was playing devil's advocate. But I can see from your response that you don't wish to repair it at all. And your feelings are completely valid, this is definitely the space for you to share them. I sympathize with the pain you're in and wish you the best. Narcissistic abuse is very difficult, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Good for you for being open to criticisms, that can be very difficult for most people because many are not good at offering it constructively. I give you a lot of credit for that! Best of luck and again, sorry to give the wrong impression in my response.
@dworth257
Oh, no, it's alright. I understand your perspective is based on the lack of explicit information on my part which is why I tried to provide some-- your response is completely applicable in most situations and a step toward being more trusting of people. It sounds like I might have come off as a bit blunt/short in rhetoric (a frequent problem of mine).
I do wish that our friendship could be repaired in my heart, but that isn't something she'd be willing to do, and I objectively know it would be negative to my health. It would also be negative to her health as I'd likely be at fault to feeding/enabling it by sacrificing myself for attachment (I often reflect on the idea of doing so). Ultimately, that would probably cycle it to regress in much the same way. My mother was the same as her, to a worse degree, so it's easy for me to fall back into it. My feelings are pretty multifaceted/complex. All I can do is care from afar and hope that she changes for the better over time with therapy.
Thank you for your thoughts. I do appreciate it.
@dworth257
I am sure you are coming from a good place, but as someone who has experienced something similar - emotional abuse and gaslighting is an attack on someone's perceptions. So devil's advocate is really harmful - because the person already doesn't trust themself. Perhaps this is advice that would be helpful for you to hear, but in this case, I don't think it is helpful. I would also add that I don't think stonewalling is okay ever, even if someone gives unsolicited advice. Giving unsolicted advice can be annoying, and its best to avoid it, but it is not abusive, and often comes from a place of care. Stonewalling and gaslighting ARE abusive and come from a place of anger and control and aren't okay - no matter how frustrated or annoyed you might be.
@courageousFig8150 I apologize if my post triggered you. I didn't realize that the person involved was completely identified as abusive. Again, I was under the impression that he or she cared about this friend and had the intent to repair the relationship/curiosity about how to go about it. As you can see below as well, I apologized for minimizing abuse. I disagree with you about stonewalling. I'm operating under the definition of stonewalling as not responding. If someone gives me unsolicited advice, I don't see it as abusive if I don't respond. If someone was confronting me about something I had done that hurt them, obviously not responding would be considered poor form. I have actually been severely gaslighted in my life, and know the damage it has. Again, I was under the impression that he or she wasn't sure about the relationship and whether it was truly toxic. I read the first post incorrectly as someone who was curious, not a definitive mourning of a narcissistic relationship. Luckily we resolved the issue. Thanks for you'r feedback, I respectfully disagree.
@dworth257
It seems you guys worked it out!
It looks like you had a longer convo I didn't see before I posted - so I'm sorry that my comment didn't acknowldge that. Like I said, I'm sure you were coming from a good place and I think its great that you want to see things from all sides. I'm also really sorry that you have experienced gaslighting as well.
It seems like maybe you might have an easier time letting things go than I do (which is great!) - I loved that you said "good riddance!"
I was just trying to point out that a lot of times in these situations people are already thinking about all sides and in fact veering over into blaming themselves, so hearing from a devils advocate (for people who are already blaming themselves) can start that self blame spiral again.
Here is some more info about stonewalling if you or anyone wants to take a look. https://www.betterhelp.com/advice/relations/is-stonewalling-a-form-of-abuse/
Again, glad you guys worked it out!
@fleetingbardsong
I hope you find peace and I'm also very glad you reached out for help!
@courageousFig8150 I absolutely agree with you though that gaslighting is always abusive ! One hundred percent. I wasn't saying that, I was just trying to explain what gaslighting actually is because there is a misconception about it. Sometimes when people disagree about events or misinterpreted the intent behind someone's words, they will write the other off as gaslighting, when it really isn't. Of course, this is if both parties are being honest about their perception and intent. But absolutely actual gaslighting is about control, and is always abusive. I wasn't saying this to deny his or her POV, but since I thought they wanted to repair the relationship, I was showing where there might be a gap in communication. Sorry for the confusion!
@dworth257
No worries!
I hear you and I understand what you mean!
@FleetingBardSong I also wasn't aware from your first post that you had already identified her as a narcissist and so on, I was reading it like a regular friendship that was leaning towards emotional abuse, as a surprising amount of long term friendships sometimes do. I am most definitely not the type of person to minimize any type of emotional abuse. Good for you for turning to the site and a therapist and cutting contact for your health.
@dworth257
I think at the time of posting I was second guessing what people have told me so I didn't say explicitly. I still have bouts where I do and harshly blame myself-- and reject what she did despite what I'm told. During those times I often question if I'm confabulating or if I'm the one who was abusive. When I'm not, I blame myself for not recognizing what she did because I keep falling into it. I know a lot ties to my upbringing, as well as my highschool relationships. I'm unsure if bipolar has anything to do with it too, but it might.
@FleetingBardSong I totally understand. It can be so confusing, but if a lot of people agree with you, it probably wasn't you. Also, the fact that you worry about it and care probably means that it wasn't you. I'm sorry you have to go through this confusion and that you're so hurt by it, and apologize again for my words earlier :( There usually are reasons behind what people do, but sometimes it just isn't worth figuring it out. If this person put you through an amount of grief that you would even wonder if it was abuse ... it is probably best to let it go, as hard as that can be. But we are all here to listen and help you through it.
@dworth257
There's no need to apologize. I know I came off as defensive adding context, but you're right that it is true to always consider what a person's history might be that leads to their actions or not assume they don't have anything going on.
Somewhat on that note, I think the fact that covid isolation is so harsh right now that it led as both to take a hard look at what was going on in our relationship-- at least I'd like to believe, no matter what her actions were. I might be too naiive in that. It makes me feel better though to believe rather than being discarded.
It's probably apparent that my thoughts shift quite a lot on these matters. It's difficult and I often sound as confused as I feel. My inconsistency is probably awkward to connect(? lack of better word in mind).
Thank you for being here for me. I appreciate the kind responses.
@FleetingBardSong I only bring up context because at the very least, you know there was nothing you could to to procure better treatment from her or help her. A full-blown narcissist had these issues long before you came along. I can relate to your confusion. Ive known a few malicious people and even after everything they've done to you, you hold on to this idea of who you thought they were.
@FleetingBardSong oops just reread your thing and saw that they let her live there for free. So I understand what you're saying. I've found from my own experience that people should always just pay rent lol, too much resentment any other way. Even if she did allll of the chores, there would have been resentment eventually over money for food water electric etc, unless the families were unfailingly rich. Never a good situation but again more complex than it seems and all involved probably have good points.
@FleetingBardSong
I went through the same thing a couple of months ago. It sounds to me like you were in a typical narcissistic relationship. Let yourself heal. Maybe she will be willing to change in the future and you guys can start over, but for now focus on you. Get to know the things YOU like and the things YOU won't tolerate. If she approaches you again in the future you'll be prepared. ❤
@Ayla2018
I hope so. I'd still like to believe at heart she's good and can make a lot of progress. As is, I think she noticed a lot of things before I did and it wouldn't be fair of me not to consider that. I have a lot of faith that she can improve greatly and I don't think that opinion is due to my attachment.
I'd like to believe she'd not want to continue our relationship for now because she geniunely didn't want to hurt me. I wish her a lot of love, I'll be honest. I hope she can find therapy.
It would be wonderful to have our friendship back again after I've practiced more self love and work on my boundaries. Whether or not that will happen, who can say. As much as I vent feelings out of hurt, I do still love her and wish her the best.
Thank you.
@FleetingBardSong
I'm so sorry you're going through this.
I had a friendship like this which I had to end because of how badly she reacted when I asked her to please let me know if she was going to cancel instead of standing me up (which happened multiple times.). It got to the point where I felt so manipulated that I asked her to write to me instead of meeting up so that I could read her letter back to myself (and show my therapist) and remind myself that she was blame shifting/ gaslighting me.
The only person, ironically, who understood what was happening was another friend who I later realized was also abusive. I should have known because he TOLD me - saying that she was even better than him at gaslighting. He even read me the beginning of a letter from a girl who had been suffering for years after his manipulations and said to me, and I quote, "I didn't even finish reading it because I don't care." Everyone else would say things like "I like her too" and "You've got to let it go." Because he was the only person who understood, I ignored major warning signs, and was stupidly shocked when he discarded me (and spread rumors about me) for calling him out on hurtful (and sexist) behavior. I tried to tell another friend about him, but he had already convinced that friend that I was a bad person.
Its been almost two years and I am still not recovered fully from this. And its been really hard to talk to anyone about it because I don't think many people understand how deep manipulation can get in your head and scramble it. Its been really hard for me to trust anyone since, and I still have a really hard time believing that I'm not a horrible person. Its hard a lot of the times to trust my intuition when people don't understand.
ALL OF THIS TO SAY that your feelings are valid. A lot of people won't get it - and won't want to hear it. But I hear you I hear you and believe you and I understand.
@courageousFig8150 ugh I've known somebody like this. She always canceled at the last minute and then would lie about it. She grew up here and then her mother died, and her dad moved to Florida and married somebody else. She basically was hopping homes all the time and my family always tried to be there for her but she never showed up. Worse, she would promise to, then not show up or respond and then lie about why. And if I confronted her, she'd make me feel guilty because of whatever she was going through. Granted, sometimes she had some points, saying that she just would make plans because she was excited to see me only to realize at the last second she couldn't because her dad wouldn't give her money and she was barely getting by (too depressed and ended up taking longer to graduate, so behind us all financiall5 at the time). But I'm like, just communicate, you know? But she always said that I would freeze her out when she couldn't show up and then blame shifted, saying I never asked her about her life or if she was doing okay or tried to visit her, so she didn't even think I would care that much. So hard to know what to think. I felt like she completely disregarded my feelings. Of course I wanted to see her, even if I never really made the effort to make sure she was okay. She vented to me all the time about some guy, which turned out to be half lies, and I always listened. I just don't think I could possibly hold any blame. It's true that she tried to talk about it respectfully and took equal blame, but it all just felt like part of the show -- super manipulative.
@dworth257
ugh I'm so sorry you had to go through this! I totally hear you - I wish people could just communicate! I think the sad truth is that some people just aren't able/ don't know how to, but it doesnt make it any less frustrating or hurtful!
@courageousFig8150 for sure. This wasn't anywhere near the worst of how I've seen people act but frustrating nonetheless!
@courageousFig8150
That's absolutely awful. I'm so sorry you went through that. Recovering from something like that is very difficult and very understandably takes years.
I very much understand missing the warning signs when getting into another relationship where the behavior starts to repeat. I think people who are manipulative put off a similiar vibe when it comes to the good parts and closeness of our past relationships that we remember. Being so recently hurt from a previous relationship, I think I personally get the rosey colored glasses to immediate "positive"/draw-you-in manipulation from others because they're so comforting-- and it's before they start showing their true colors. I have personally gone through four manipulative relationships, starting with a parent (narcissistic abuse on the parent's part). I'm 29 and my parent still tries to get me to move back in by telling me I'll never be functional because of my illness.
In highschool I had a relationship that also ended in an attempted smear campaign. It was awful. I can relate to you there to some degree. It was senior year for me that I'd cut her off, so I was able to escape the brunt of it. She had started rumors that I was in relationships with people, that I'd physically gotten into a fight with her, and verbally abused her. She was a pathological liar, so I don't know what else she could have spread. It did take me many years to get over that relationship, even though I was the one who cut it to no-contact (I believe about 4-5 years).
Thankfully in this case I don't think this friend would smear, nor do either of us have a big enough circle or shared friends to do so.
I have not seen a such an open display of lack of empathy as the individual you described. I hope that you can find ways to cope. Over time, it will get better though. I've found it takes a lot of exploration of methods and thinking for every relationship that happens with. Coping with each one is never the same. A lot of people wont get it, sure, but you aren't alone in your experiences and many will see your feelings as valid truth. It's not at all your fault, but that's so hard to internalize.
@FleetingBardSong
I'm so sorry you went through this!
And thank you so much for your kind words. I definitely have amazing friendships who have been so helpful to me, and trying to focus on those has been really important! I hope you meet a new friend who treats you with empathy and kindness!
@FleetingBardSong i get how you feel i lost my 4 friends in February and it was rough but i am slowly making new friends now and slowly learning to trust again it sucks when they betray you and just leave you and you never hear back from them again i hope your healing over time.