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The Lonely Narcisisst Club Band

Egoassist September 29th

I'm an older but active gentleman.ย 

I continue to Alienate people. When all I want to do is help.

Reflection shows how I have alienated all that have crossed my path since grade school.

I see it as plain as day but I still misstep instictively and consistently.

I have become a cowardly narcissist and never seeing it for so many years is mind blowing.

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I want to express the making of a cowardly narcissist (myself). Others may differ.

I want to be a crybaby about it.

I want to talk about daily encounters where I failed empathy.

I'd like to talk about the benefits of a healthy narcissistic point of view.

I want to learn instantaneous empathy for others.... Instead of solutions for them.

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I welcome any and all conversations.


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Egoassist OP September 29th

I'm not unique or special. My problems are irrelevant for the sake of comparison to others.

I just need a place to unload. I'm tired of talking these things around in my head over and over again, knowing that there is no one in my life that I would trust sharing these feelings with.ย 

I am so far from the person that I wish I had become.

To have created so much disdain at every stage of my life has gotten me to where I am today and I cannot do nothing good for nobody with this anchor around my personality.

QuietMagic October 1st

@Egoassist

Hi, welcome. ๐Ÿ’œ Makes complete sense what you're saying that you're just looking for a place to express a lot of things and be heard (i.e. how things came to be what they are, feelings you're experiencing, situations where you feel like you lack empathy or alienate others) as well as maybe learning or exploring new things (e.g. ways of embodying empathy).

What usually happens when you alienate people? I noticed you mentioned wanting to help but offering solutions instead of empathy--am wondering if it's connected to that.

Also, feel free to PM me if you'd like to have a long-term, back-and-forth, 1-on-1 discussion about anything.

9 replies
IsayUncle October 5th

@QuietMagic

Hello, Thanks for responding. I hadn't seen the reply until now, sorry for the late response., but I appreciate your insights.

Also, Thank you so much for offering the PM to help. That is a big deal.ย ๐Ÿ’š.ย 

My goal for this thread is to organize my thoughts enough to fabricate an apology letter to all those I've alienated over the years. Good friends good families. Not necessarily in a pathetic submissive Manner but more of a legitimate how it happened.

The reason is because a little bit of my isolation, no legacy, etcetera etcetera but I think my driving force is that I want to be able to benefit people and I can't do it..... To this day..... With my knee jerk reaction dictated by narcissism.

Fabricating that letter will be facilitated by pointing out all the triggers that turned me into what I am.

I am proud for much of what I've accomplished but it is a lonely pride no one else has ever praised me for my efforts or my accomplishments and I tried so hard to get that attention but now all backs are turned towards me. I'm not crying or Boo hooing about this, I'm just pointing out that I can't reach the people that I want to if they have their backs turned towards me.ย ๐Ÿ˜•.

Anyway, thanks and I hope you have a nice day!ย ๐Ÿ˜Š

6 replies
cloudySummer October 5th

Don't be afraid of PMs with Magic, Uncle. He's listener gold, there is no need to worry.


I'm sorry about how your family treats you, and has treated you. It makes it very difficult to be nice with them.

5 replies
Egoassist OP October 5th

@cloudySummer

Thanks Cloudy, I did get a good feel from his comments.ย 



4 replies
QuietMagic October 6th

@cloudySummer
@Egoassist

๐Ÿ˜ณ Thanks for the positive comments! ๐Ÿ™ Kind of got my ego beaten up all week at work, but I felt good reading this and the boost is definitely appreciated. ๐Ÿ’œ

cloudySummer October 6th

@Egoassist I kind of stumbled in here... It's a bit like I've run into a private conversation, and I'm not sure whether you're okay with me staying, or whether you'd prefer that those who know you from somewhere else do not interfere here. What would be your preference, Assist?

2 replies
cloudySummer October 6th

And... I promise I won't be shocked by what you're writing. I understand that being unable to work, and having time to think can bring out the sad memories and depressing thoughts. It's not unusual.

I still think you're one of the good people out there, just really had it bad, and are horribly down on yourself when you get the chance. (sorry about being so plain, I'm no good with subtle)

1 reply
Egoassist OP October 7th

@cloudySummer

Thanks Cloudy, you're perfectly fine. It's not really private and you know I've always valued your insights so it's all good. Thanks for commenting.

The other thread turned into a more gentle discussions and I didn't want to ruin that.ย 

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Egoassist OP October 5th

@QuietMagic

I really appreciate you offering, your time is valuable. I'd like to get my thoughts sorted some with this thread but in the future, if your time allows then, perhaps we could talk. I do welcome your insights as I post too.ย ๐Ÿ™‚

Have a great weekend!ย 

1 reply
QuietMagic October 6th

@Egoassist

Thank you! Sure, can definitely feel free to continue exploring here, and then if PMs feel like an interesting idea in the future, can try to do that.

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QuietMagic October 6th

@IsayUncle

Hey, thanks for sharing. I'm having trouble figuring out how to respond, because I feel like there are a lot of moving parts and my head is spinning. ๐Ÿ˜Š At least from my perspective, the apology letter is an interesting and ambitious project but it adds *so much* complexity.

Just for my own benefit, am going to try to map out some of the different goals that are in play, as I understand them:

1) Clear self-understanding - I personally do a lot of journaling/writing, and sometimes my goal with that is just to understand what I'm thinking and get a clearer picture of what's happening, and I'm able to do that.

2) Receiving emotional support - When I add another person to the mix and share my thoughts/feelings with them, sometimes I still have the same goal as if I was journaling by myself (i.e. process and understand what's happening) and other people can often add new ideas/perspectives that lead to interesting insights that I might not have arrived at on my own. But there's also usually another goal added of, "I want this person to understand, care about what I'm feeling, and validate and empathize with what I'm saying so that I can feel some warmth, connection, etc.". And the success of this depends on who I'm sharing with, what I'm sharing, whether they're able to understand, what kinds of feelings they have toward me, their personality, etc.

3) Personal transformation - You've also pointed to a third idea (in your original post) of wanting to learn empathy, explore healthy versions of narcissism, transform the person that you are and how you relate to others into something different.

***

The apology letter feels complicated because... it adds other people's subjectivity to the mix. What are their goals, how will they react to the letter, what do they gain from it, do your goals match their goals, etc.

Something I'll share: an uncomfortable truth for me personally is that... sometimes I can think, feel, and write the most beautiful/amazing/interesting things... and when I share them with other people, they simply don't care. Or they don't feel it's relevant or don't get the same burst of excitement as I do. ๐Ÿ™

If I'm hoping for a certain kind of reaction and I don't receive it, of course that hurts. (And if that happens over and over, then yeah that becomes a big problem. I wonder if you've had that kind of experience.)

So I've kind of involuntarily learned the habit of trying to consider the question of, "is this person likely to actually care about what I have to say and respond in the way that I want"? It's deeply self-centered (i.e. will they give me what I want if I share myself with them) but at the same time there are elements of selflessness in it (i.e. what is this person's agenda and what do they want, independent of what I want)?

It's not that I'm trying to be less self-centered or more objective/realistic or anything noble like that. It's just that in terms of my own selfish agenda, it hurts a lot more if I'm connecting with my vulnerability and hoping for something from other people that isn't going to happen. So it helps my well-being to try to understand other people's perspectives and anticipate how they might respond before I approach them with things that I care about that are sensitive.

That's sort of where I'm struggling with the letter, because the painful thing is, I wonder how other people will respond to it and whether it'll be what you're hoping for. I wonder if "here is a complete analysis of who I am and how I got to be the way that I am" will be something that they care about.

3 replies
Egoassist OP October 6th

@QuietMagic

You do have so many valid points. That's the main reason I started this thread to sort all of those convoluted and debilitating thoughts that have been haunting me for 4 solid years.

You are right about "stupid" letters... I understand what those are. Been there, done that.ย 

A letter might have been a wrong representaion of my intention..... more of an explanation.... I know, gray area and possible same reults. I know. But that's what I'm going to sort here. Your post here is a great reference for me to come back to and digest.ย 

I didn't know all the destructive influences I lived through. How could I not see it until i was 60 years old. How much harm I did to others with niativity. So many regrets not seen never recognized.

Turning people off. Grade school. Normal or indicators. Disliked by siblings, Normal or indicators.... I'd say normal until they developed into a wrong direction.ย 

I may never questioned all of these things if it was not for the internet and all the dialouge that is evident of child abuse. As children, we just accept grave things as normal or not important. In the old days there was no connection to an outside collection of infractions for young ones to read and absorb.ย 

Maybe not so much of a letter but a story of why I turned into such a loser along with the balance of insisting I was better than that... A narcissist born.

btw, I was trying to keep this story/thread seperate from my more optimisstic threads by isayuncle.
I accidently posted one time while in wrong account.ย 

It's not a big deal but can you respond to Egoassist..... purge isayuncle from thread but it's ok..... i'll probably goof again. (Kind of stupid I guess) but thanks anyway.

And thanks for the post.ย ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

Egoassist OP October 6th

@QuietMagic

if "here is a complete analysis of who I am and how I got to be the way that I am" will be something that they care about.

At this point I don't think I wholly care how they react to it. The keyword being "wholly" of course I do somewhat. I want them to know that I know and how sorry I am about it. Just saying you're sorry is sometimes not enough. People wanna know what you are sorry for. I'm not sorry for my personality disorder I am just so sorry how much it has discouraged others.

Agreeing with the idea that this is a very complex endeavor with numerous intersections, I already understand that people are earnest with your own survival and my past will probably have little impact.ย 

The depth that I go into this for myself will be beneficial for me. There's a part of me that thinks if I share it accurately perhaps it can help somebody else relate and understand things about themselves better. That could just be the grandiose nature of narcissism.

It is really strange that my earliest memory. It seems I was about 3 years old. Perhaps it was just a dream well perhaps I was much older but the memory goes like this.

The background is of an alcoholic father who all my older siblings say beat my mother and he lost 130 acre farm through irresponsibility. I was the baby of seven.

My 2 middleย  brothers we're pulling me in a wagon.. It was One of those wagons that had the wooden sides like a western theme that the sides would pull out. I don't remember the farm but my father lost it irresponsibly. For some reason I remember this road they were pulling me up on and it went uphill and they were arguing about who's going to pull me. I've never made it back to that farm to see if there was a little hill by the front door. But they decided to turn around to go downhill. After a while my middle sister joined us. When she did, we were a good bit down the inclined Rd. And they asked her to bring you back to the house. And they all got to find in and are you in and carrying on and I remember I started crying like a baby. And finally my sister begrudgingly grabbed a wagon and started back towards the house.ย 

I remember that as my very first memory in life; not being wanted. I don't know how accurate it is. I don't know if 3 year olds can remember details. At about 3 years old, my parents separated and all the children went and lived with my mother in the low income projects and she worked all day. At those projects I had a little western wagon like that.

That sister hated my guts as our adolescent ages approached and onward into adulthood. In reflection, I understand sibling rivalries are quite common. But that hatefulness had an effect on me.ย 


1 reply
Egoassist OP October 6th

@Egoassist

*And they all got to find in and are you in*

(And they all got to fighting about it and) - correct

Add-in... The whole thing from beginning to end went from my brother's arguing to begin with and then complaining and then arguing with my sister to me crying feeling like i was bad.

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Egoassist OP October 6th

I'm in a real bad place right... Not harmful... just bad mojo.... Pathetic and selfish.

I do not want to share these feelings on my other threads. I didn't want my other threadster friends see this level of frailty but I messed up and posted using crossed usernames.

I'm weak and pathetic right now. My narcissistic personality he's left me with no calming, loving and understanding resource. Just because that's not uncommon doesn't mean it's easily bearable.

The past two years I've ignored my downside and push past obstacles thinking that I would get on top and then be able to handle these other things in a positive way. I didn't get high enough fast enough and have absolutely fallen to rock bottom.ย 

All my grandiose ideas, I got good acreage for tourism business, I've acquired licenses and certifications. I've got equipment big enough to shape the land and I did all that in two years. If I can stay responsible I have more work then I can do..... But I'm tired,, my world came crashing down around me when I had surgery on my arm and had been out of work for four weeks now. There were so many things I could have done in this time. But I got consumed with self pity.

Completing my narcissistic compilation wears heavily on my mind. I think I'm spiraling out of control but through experience, I know I can't let go of that shiny thing in that coconut. (the monkety trap)

QuietMagic October 8th

@Egoassist

Hey, sure I can tag this account. Totally understand re: wanting to have one persona that's sort of more put together and another one where you can just be anything/everything else that isn't as put together. It's very common for people on this site to have a listener account and then a member account. My own member account is pretty embarrassing (but still very much me and I have a certain perverse pride in how free and chaotic I'm able to be on that account). Then meanwhile, my listener account is pristine and unimpeachable, beloved by all. ๐Ÿ˜…

285697238800328778-1361494145-1_1728361374.jpg

I don't think anybody else who knows you through the other persona will be able to find this thread unless if they specifically know to go looking for it. You didn't create this thread through the other username, so it won't show up in that username's profile nor in any forum search results for that username.

***

Understand what you're saying about feeling like things when you were growing up... maybe didn't feel great, but there was this assumption that it was still normal. And then later you look on the internet and realize that maybe things weren't as normal as you thought.

That story with the wagon is pretty heartbreaking, especially with the idea of you being only 3 years old at the time and having to watch your siblings fight over who's forced to pull you and care for you because nobody wants to do it. ๐Ÿ™ It seems like that left a lasting impression and has connected with this broader, lifelong(?) theme of feeling unwanted.

***

If I'm understanding, for the past couple years, there were some "downsides" to the way that you were approaching things, but you pushed through them and had a lot of success with the tourism business (e.g. getting acreage, licenses/certifications, equipment). But then recently you've been unable to work for about a month due to having arm surgery. And that time being away from the business and feeling like things are crashing has triggered some reflection.

1) Is it like there's been a realization that the business felt sort of like a shiny object or something grandiose, but deep down there are some other needs/wants that aren't being satisfied?

2) Is the arm surgery such that your arm will recover at some point and you'd be able to resume working if you wanted to? If so, how long until the arm recovers? And do you plan to start working again?

2 replies
IsayUncle October 8th

@QuietMagic

1) Is it like there's been a realization that the business felt sort of like a shiny object or something grandiose, but deep down there are some other needs/wants that aren't being satisfied?

The business was a necessity for financial security after a divorce. My property and the tourism business "idea" can be a huge asset for my dysfunctional family that live in another state. I have no children, I'm talking about my extended family and siblings. I am the last son of my surname family.

I got so amazingly lucky from the choices I made in these last couple of years combined with the aligned stars where I bought my property in this particular county wanting to develop tourism.

If I cannot present the possibilities in a positive manner there is no need for me to hang on to everything. I should just sell everything and go tour the world. What a waste that would be. Some could say I got grandiose delusions but if I can snare one or two into a trap of grand success, then that would be good. Perhaps they may be able to continue the growth.

I have spoken to very few people in my family for the past couple of years and nothing along the lines of casual fun relaxed conversation. More of obligatory staying in touch scenario. As now I can see the ugliness of my narcissism it is almost impossible for me to face anybody because I know how they feel about me even if they put a smile on their face so I can truly reach no one at the moment.

I understand everyone has their own hatefulness regardless of my inadequacies and persona has little to do with their own drama that they're dealing with. I know that makes me irrelevant from a logical point of view, not to be perceived as a slight or emotional point of view.ย 

But now with my eyes open, I can see how my narcissistic personality has been with me for a very long time and I can handpick many instances did I have hurt people's feelings it made them feel dejected.ย 

The business side is one prong in a two prong goal. That prong has legs and I think will do well with some more effort and patience. So now I have a little extra energy to approach the second prong of making things better and that starts with explaining or understanding my narcissism.ย 

So I can honestly say, I'm Sorry, it wasn't your fault. See, it was this.

2) Is the arm surgery such that your arm will recover at some point and you'd be able to resume working if you wanted to? If so, how long until the arm recovers? And do you plan to start working again?

I am almost recovered now and yes I will be able to go back to work. My arm healed well and I have physical therapy for a few weeks.ย 

FYI, I've been wanting to start this thread for a very long time. It just so happens when I did start it I was in a pretty deep depressive place. Yesterday my depression broke and I'm back into a proactive situation.

I am gonna continue this thread because it's very important to me I just wanted to say thank you very much for involving yourself with it.ย 

Thanks for everything, I hope you have a great week.ย ๐Ÿ™‚

1 reply
IsayUncle October 8th

@QuietMagic

I goofed again (accounts) but I trust my friends... I just wanted to leave the heavy stuff elsewhere.

Oh Well, do better in the future.ย ๐Ÿคซ

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QuietMagic October 8th

@Egoassist

Makes sense--so the business was necessary and helpful when you started it (making sure you're staying financially afloat). And it's still part of your general life plan. (That's nice that your arm is in good shape and that you'll be able to restart where you left off. ๐Ÿ’œ) But there's now a recognition of two different "prongs" or things that you're focused on: 1) the business, 2) working on figuring out the narcissism stuff.

Understandable that if the business feels like it's moving in a positive direction and has a good chance of becoming very profitable, you'd want to get your extended family and siblings involved so that they can benefit from it as well (as opposed to all of that money being funneled only into you). Re: persuading others that it's not just a grandiose delusion and that they can trust it and it's worth getting involved, I guess some potential doubts/concerns/objections to anticipate and answer might be "what's the evidence that this has a strong chance of succeeding", "what's the current plan and is it realistic", "is there any risk or burden for me if I get involved", etc.

***

"So I can honestly say, I'm Sorry, it wasn't your fault. See, it was this."

Gotcha, so basically saying to people something like this (with more detail)?

"In the past, I did/said XYZ to you. I treated you as if you were the one doing something wrong or being unreasonable. But looking back, much of that conflict was coming from my own side. I understand in what ways I was contributing to the situation, and I understand the hurt that you experienced (and why you understandably felt as though I was the one doing something wrong). I apologize for the fact that things happened the way that they did, and I feel like I have a path or set of actions I can take going forward that will allow me to avoid hurting you or anyone else in the same way again."

4 replies
Egoassist OP October 9th

@QuietMagic

Hey Quiet Magic, Good morning.ย 

I just wanted to say I like all the stuff that you had to say there. Thanks. This is an ongoing project so sometimes I may not respond immediately but that doesn't mean I'm losing any interest or not actively pursuing the matter.

Thanks for everything and I hope you have a wonderful day.ย ๐Ÿ˜€

3 replies
QuietMagic October 9th

@Egoassist

Of course, no rush. (I'm not responding instantaneously either. ๐Ÿ˜Š) Glad to hear that my responses feel relevant.

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Egoassist OP October 20th

@QuietMagic

Thanks and I'm glad things are good.๐Ÿ˜€

They did a good jobs getting the forums back to sensible in my book... It was a bit of a mess.

I wonder how many variables of narcissism there is. What births it for individuals.

In my case and in hindsight, I can follow my development of it pretty accurately I think. Everything boils down to gross insecurity and lack of attention I think. Always feeling inferior around others and then also trying to do my best to be my best. The problem comes in when you're trying to show everyone how smart we are because in reality we feel inferior to them. Of course they all have their own problems and so you come off as a braggart or a show off. Plus one can be so focused on their own accomplishments, they don't have the ability to acknowledge or feel what the other person is going through at their level and in their world.ย 

These are the bits and pieces that I wanna try to put together from my childhood to my current situation.

It will be a slow process.

Egoassist OP November 6th

@Quietmagic @cloudysummer

It's been awhile, I hope you're doing wellย ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

I tried my hand at that letter that I'm needing to write. Started off pretty good I think but then it got kind of cloudy at the end so I'm gonna give it a break. If time allows please feel free to critique it. The letter is 1 page long now but to finish it, may add another 3/4 page. Haven't worked out an exit stratagy yet. thanks.

Dear name,

I knew this conversation weโ€™re going to come eventually. I didnโ€™t expect it to take four years. Iโ€™ve missed you and your family greatly in those years.

I can only imagine youโ€™ve had many hard times but hopefully just as many good times or more to balance things out. Iโ€™m sure the kids are struggling but figuring things out as they go and of course name1 is name1 so Iโ€™m sure heโ€™s hanging in there.

The destructive nature of what happened between us has haunted me pretty much every day. The way it developed and concluded brought forth the ugly truth of how much I was disliked, disrespected and no longer someone that you looked up to. The silence of family members led me to the conclusion the majority held similar judgments toward me.

It's important to know that Iโ€™m not writing this letter out of concern for myself. Of course, if it resolves things I will be greatly blessed but by no means am I looking for some sense of vindication, justification.ย 

Iโ€™m writing this with the hopes of a resolution, more positive actions can start to take place in a world where negative energy is all powerful.

There are many threads woven together that created this calamity but sadly there is only one thread that started the design.

That thread was / is me.ย 

I never saw my narcissistic personality for what it was. During my upbringing the word narcissistic was only used in movies that define crazy people. There wasnโ€™t an entire Internet explaining labels and personalities.ย 

My narcissistic tendencies developed at a young age and I can point out numerous relationships that got destroyed because of it. Of course, at that age, all of that could be allocated to social awkwardness and insecurities.

As I approached young adulthood, like everyone else, my insecurities dictated my actions and reactions but one thing stayed constant. I continued alienating people and never forming bonds of permanence

And so, the story goesโ€ฆโ€ฆ this desert of isolation only fortified my independence and my nativity never allowed for any others productive insights to pierce my fortified resolve to be better and to do better. My eternal quest of doing better only fed into my narcissistic personality to make it bigger and uglier.

In some ways I think my narcissistic personality kept me strong enough to make it through life but ultimately it is a destructive personality and it destroyed my relationship with you.

Name2 lied to you and you sucked it up to become name2โ€™s advocate, her warrior to get her what she claimed was rightfully hers and all of that was on false pretenses.

But the only reason you believed it, was because name2 is a genius at what she does and combined with my narcissistic personality, which I had already and righteously planted the seeds of distrust and dislike causing the thread this whole situation is feeding off of.


6 replies
QuietMagic November 7th

@Egoassist

Hey, I feel like I'm trying to understand what the goal of the letter is, and there are two ideas that come to mind that feel like they might be in conflict:

1) Intrapersonal exploration or self-expression of what happened to you, how you became what you are, how it felt for you, your understanding of the causality

2) Trying to apologize to someone who's upset with you and doing specific things that increase the chances of them being forgiving or empathetic (i.e. understanding of their feelings, taking accountability, showing personal change, committing to not repeating whatever previously happened)

Which of those goals are you prioritizing? Currently it feels like the letter is maybe 75% #1 and 25% #2.

If the goal of the letter is #1 and you don't plan to send it, then that's totally fine and in that case I'd want to respond in a way that involves relating to what you're sharing. And there's not really anything to "critique"--your feelings and thoughts are yours, there's an intrinsic logic to them, you can articulate them in whatever way you want, and there's value in exploring things. ๐Ÿ’œ

If the goal of the letter is #2 and you're asking me to critique it in terms of "how well does it achieve the goal of reconciling with [name]", then I can give more feedback but my general feeling is that it probably needs some rewriting.

1 reply
Egoassist OP November 7th

@QuietMagic

Hey, Thanks... You are exactly right about the confusion. The letter got out of focus and rambling.
Thanks for responding. I was confident your interpretation would be constructive. It was in spades! Thanks.ย I'm having a hard time trusting myself with this narcissistic anchor around my thoughts.

I have not gotten to the part of the letter that expresses my regret and sorrow for the pain, suffering and doubt that I may have caused. Mostly I was setting up the stage of why I acted the way that I did but I also have to be careful about saying "I'm sorry... but this and but that"

I realized my staging was all about me..... Wrong direction I think.ย 

I think I'm gonna add some more thoughts to the original letter and then maybe dissect it from there. I think there are gonna be two parts to it. Maybe not, perhaps that would be self defeating.

Goal 1: Apology for my personality..... my actions???? I didn't do anything, Actions were taken against me. "Why" do i want to apologize? The situation was worsened by my inaction. Ultimate reason for apology..... A possible stepping stone to a healing process. Or a door closed with a clear finality for me. Perhaps the clear finality has already been achieved for and by the other party.

Goal 2: I understand some the actions the others took were because of my personality amd I want to accept that resposibilty in a manner to be understanding to why they did what they did....ย 

Goal 3: Trying to do this without pulling all the threads and rehashing or reigniting an argumentitive posture.

Question: Can I apologize unconditionally? Should I? Can you forgive somebody that seems they did nothing wrong?ย 

I think this is the true question that I'm fighting with. Maybe a little right and unconditional apology, maybe it doesn't have to be an apology put more about an outpouring of regrets in regards to a lost relationship.

Thanks for reading and responding..
Have a good night and a great day tommorrow.ย ๐ŸŒž


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cloudySummer November 7th

@Egoassist First of all - I thank you and would like to give praise to you for sharing this letter with us here. It's deeply personal, and it must have been written by a very courageous and sensitive person.

Second, it makes me sad that you take on the blame for another's wrongdoings. I want to shake you and hug you alternatingly (which, I guess, isn't appropriate to do, lol) and tell you that you're not at fault for other people's lying! I'm not sure you're at the end of your journey of self-exploration yet, I hope this is just the beginning, and that at the end you can be more gentle with yourself.

That said... (sorry, lol, but I just believe you're an essentially good person - and you may call me crazy...) ...ย  Magic is right, if this is where you're at, it is how you currently feel and that's alright. No amount of telling you I think you're not as bad would change that.

If you want to send the letter to someone (in contrast to write it for yourself and then keep it, burn it or trash it), I agree with you about the second half not being ideal yet. I'm stumbling most about all the labeling going on, that makes it seem like you're helping cement other people's views of yourself, and that - I think - without knowing whether an expert would really give you those labels, too. Sometimes we have a view of ourselves that isn't necessarily what other people see. Unless they're just as mean as we are towards ourselves.

Thanks again for sharing it with us here ๐Ÿซ‚

PS: How is your shoulder? Is it getting better?

3 replies
cloudySummer November 7th

PPS Hadn't seen your reply before posting.

Egoassist OP November 7th

@cloudySummer

Thanks for all the support along with the hugging and shaking (lol).ย 

I don't have time to get into it right now but I wasn't being courageous to post my letter here. It's actually quite the opposite and done more from a sense of neccessity.
It's acknowledging moreย cowardiceย thanย courage.ย ย Acknowledging my narcissism and seeing it for what it is has left me doubting my own words and thoughts. I feel impotent and emotionally void of warmth. I fear to speak my mind uninhibited.ย 

I'm scared of saying the wrong thing, making things worse. But I must make this communication before I can move forward with anything else. And if this is the only way that I can do it, then I will. I can use all the advice and help that I can get to fabricate an effective communication, strong enough that if it's rebuked, I know my words were accurate and intentions clear.ย 

Thanks Cloudy, My arm is doing much better. I'm back to work but must be very careful. Also doing therapy twice a week.ย ๐Ÿ˜ฌ๐Ÿ˜„.

Have a great day!





1 reply
cloudySummer November 9th

@Egoassist Heh, sorry about the 'shaking' part... that can't help, it never does.

Let me say that I do find it courageous, and that that is my own opinion, and I will keep on holding it. It is courageous to me to want to face this conflict, to want to get a 'final decision', to pour it all out here, when you don't know how people will react (neither us nor your relatives later). Being scared and still doing it... that's what courage is, right? If you're not scared, there's no need to be courageous.

At some point, if you feel comfortable with it, I would like to understand what you mean by 'being narcissistic' and how you figured it out? Only if that is okay for you. Maybe that was going to be part of that part two post, where we are not supposed to reply to part one yet...? ๐Ÿค

That's so good that your shoulder is getting better ๐Ÿ˜€, and even allows you to carefully work again! I think you've been in pain since ... was it before last Christmas? I hope it continues to get better, also with physiotherapy (glad that's still going on, and helping! Even if it's apparently not too much fun... ๐Ÿ˜จ).

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QuietMagic November 8th

@Egoassist

I'm glad the back-and-forth has felt helpful. I'm realizing something, which is that I really don't understand what happened and I've been making a lot of assumptions. ๐Ÿ’œ

I don't know if this fits, but I kind of have this feeling that there are different sides in conflict and it's making things really murky. (And that's maybe what's making it tough to figure out how to write the letter.)

***

1) There's someone/something that is blaming you, judging you, criticizing you, insisting that everything is your fault, etc.

I'd say that maybe the "narcissism" label falls into this pile too? It has the effect of making it so that, regardless of what your personal truth/experience is, it's possible for someone to dismiss it by saying "hey, your feelings don't matter because you're narcissistic". It kind of short-circuits the whole process of trying to connect with what feels true/real for you. Like you're not allowed to trust your experiences or don't have the right to feel hurt. Like someone's going to yell at you and say you don't deserve the kindness if you try to take care of yourself or be gentle with yourself. ๐Ÿ˜ข

2) The other side is that beneath all of that judgment, there's this more vulnerable/personal reality of "I didn't do anything. I was hurt. Other people did things. I was shaped by that. I reacted based on who I was. I tried my best. I have no idea what I could or should have done differently given all that happened and who I was."

***

As soon as you try to connect with #2, #1 jumps in and is like "Hey, how dare you have feelings. Don't you know you're not allowed to do that?"

When you mention wanting to have an effective communication that's strong enough to withstand being rebuked, I wonder if that's like "I want to feel secure/trusting enough in myself that even if someone jumps in and starts being hostile/accusatory toward me and negating my experience, I can still have some feeling of stability in who I am and trust that I'm not wrong in how I'm understanding things."

[I'm making a lot of guesses/extrapolations. If something doesn't feel right, please do correct, tell me I'm wrong, etc. ๐Ÿ™]

2 replies
Egoassist OP November 8th

@QuietMagic

You're precise and effective dissection of what I say it's quite amazing. The time that it takes to give it that much thought and reflection is not just a passing thing so I thank you very much for taking the time and helping me out.

I'll try to give you a short version of the overall picture so maybe your thought process could be a little easier.

As I referenced earlier, my childhood was pretty whacked with an overbearing disciplinary father trying to raise several children on his own after mom couldn't handle us any more. As the youngest of the brood, I saw little of a of my older siblings because they were just turning of age to be able to move out. He was a heavy-handed man and caused great resentment from my siblings towards him. I also experienced much of his heavy handedness but as time went on he tried to correct his ways and eventually I was viewed as being favored by him, along with my closely aged sister.

Through resentment and general sibling rivalries I was ostracized and isolated.

Fast forward past all of my attempted accomplishments that received no recognition ever.ย 

Having left the family environment at the age of 18 for approximately 20 years with the help of the military service for a few years and then moving and living in a different part of this country just working and trying to survive for the remaining years. I had married my first wife and divorced after 15 years.

Fast forward past the all the events, (which included my oldest brother suicide) that eventually guided me back to my hometown and family members. I never realized how much I was ostracized, isolated or insulated. Whatever the word is that I'm looking for, I simply did not fit in with my remaining siblings They have been living together all their lives. I knew nothing of any family drama. New kid on the block still trying to prove himself, hey look at me! Classic narcissism at its best creating more dislike towards me that I've never seen coming or comprehended to even understand.

This is the backdrop of what eventually developed within my relationship and family after I married my second wife. I tried to be the best uncle ever for 20 years to have it all smoked away in a moment. Of course it wasn't all done in a moment. My own actions set up the conditions for this gross failure over many years.

I have run out of time this morning so the actual part of the story that explains what actually happened will have to be continued later.

There's little need to comment on this post because I haven't completed it yet. But thanks for reading it and I will get back to finishing it up later.ย ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

Thanks

1 reply
QuietMagic November 9th

@Egoassist

Thanks for taking the time to share/explain things. Will wait for the rest of the story ๐Ÿ’œ

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