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writing space

frigidstars27 October 8th, 2019

Creating a new thread for personal writing. I have an existing thread in the diary forum, but it's completely focused on a single topic. Would like this to be a much more free-roaming, open-ended, long-term thread where I'm free to just spew out whatever I want with complete disregard for cross-post consistency (e.g. writing style, mental state, subject matter) if I wish.

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frigidstars27 OP October 19th, 2019

writing methods i use but haven't described yet:

1) whiteboard

have a whiteboard, jot all of my shorthand stuff onto there, draw lines between things, organize into clusters, etc. copy everything to notepad and repeat until i have a model i like.

2) transcription

open up audacity and record myself talking, listen back (usually sped up by 60-80% to save time) and jot notes in notepad. repeat until i feel satisfied.

3) lists

list as many things as i can that i'm worried about, usually in shorthand. usually try to do this in groups of 5 (i.e. don't stop listing unless if i have a number of items that's divisible by 5). when i reach saturation (i.e. run out of things to list), i try to group items together, eliminate duplicates, and identify clusters; good for creating models from scratch.

frigidstars27 OP October 20th, 2019

Want to try something I've never done before, which is to imagine a sort of chatroom with characters for all of the elements of myself, prospective activities, current activities, etc.

[chatroom created!]
[sound joined the chat]
[theory joined chat]
sound: hello
theory: hi
sound: i feel musical notes at my forehead
[energy joined the chat]
energy: you're just tired
[sexuality joined the chat]
sexuality: would the notes be helpful for my stuff?
energy: sexuality, i have a bone to pick with you
sexuality: okay
energy: you're ruining everything
[work joined the chat]
[7cups joined the chat]
7cups: i don't know about that
[exercise joined the chat]
theory: lol, it's a party
theory: just all the more disembodied spirits to twist into models
[chaos joined the chat]
[playful joined the chat]
theory: okay, i guess i'll be the leader then
chaos: not if i have anything to do with it ;)
theory: well, you're not really doing much are you?
work: just to clarify, i'm not on either side
work: i'm doing what i'm supposed to either way
work: you guys can have fun arguing if you want, lol
[social joined the chat]
[hobbies joined the chat]
energy: oh but i mean, don't you have an easier time when i'm on point?
[voice joined the chat]
[body joined the chat]
energy: oh s***, body's here--the bigwigs have arrived
body: [grin] yeah that's right, show some respect, lol
body: j/k
theory: um, so what the heck are we doing?
theory: all [counts list] 13 of us?
theory: is that everyone?
[safety joined the chat]
chaos: hi safety
safety: hello
[softness joined the chat]
[genderdysphoria joined the chat]
theory: nice name, lol
genderdysphoria: yup, what's there not to like, haha
theory: okay, and playful's already here...
playful: meow, i'm a little kitty ^_^
[genderdysphoria changed their name to gender]
gender: [tickles playful]
[goth joined the chat]
playful: eek... [turns into a 100-foot dragon and accidentally steps on gender] oops
gender: [stepped on] oh, oh well. so it goes.
theory: [clears throat] can we stay on-topic?
chaos: of course... oh fearless leader. ;)
playful: i wanna be... SUNNY! [puts on sunglasses] lol
theory: um, i think to make this a little easier, we should first sort of divide ourselves into teams
playful: oh, are we going to have a war? :P
playful: [pretends to be bloodthirsty] meow, i'm super scary...
theory: i've been keeping track of everyone who has joined by the time in which they joined, and here is the current list:

sound, theory, energy, sexuality, work, 7cups, exercise, chaos, playful, social, hobbies, voice, body, safety, softness, gender, goth

chaos: @_@
theory: my thought is that we go one at a time, in order, and just give one concern each. alright?
[aggression joined the chat]
theory: so, sound you start
sound: i wanna be an a-flat at eye level with lines extending down to the stomach
playful: [applause] you're amazing :P i couldn't said it better
playful: why isn't stomach in the chat?
sexuality: i ate stomach
playful: oh... scaryyyy.... sexuality, did i say hi to you yet?
work: [rolls eyes]
theory: c'mon guys, let's stay focused
theory: so, my concern is that i want us to know what the heck we're doing
theory: energy, you're next
energy: everything is s***. y'all are destroying me. i don't know how the heck you're getting by without me.
sexuality: i'm pretty confused. i was doing fine, and then 7cups decided to start blabbing about me. and now i get these warm chills that weren't happening before. and like energy said, things are really haywire. though they were pretty bad before.
work: i'm getting messed up, but it's okay i guess.
[expression joined the chat]
[altruism joined the chat]
7cups: i'm confused but i guess i'm finding new things. i want to be patient. so much has happened in the past week.
exercise: you guys keep saying you're going to engage with me, but you never do. and i guess that's understandable. but i just wonder where i fit into all of this. i think i have beef with 7cups and sexuality.
energy: yeah, i really need exercise. sleep and food aren't cutting it. but mainly sexuality is messing things up.
7cups: you're going to blame it on me and sexuality, but work isn't really suffering, and social is going well from what i understand.
7cups: well, but i guess i'll let everyone take their turn.
theory: let's see, next would be chaos
chaos: i'm pretty happy. music and i are best buds right now.
playful: i feel lonely, but i keep myself entertained.
playful: nobody wants to play with me.
sexuality: i'll play with you
playful: work and theory keep me locked in their basement on a chain.
playful: like, i know you're into kinky stuff, but it's not right. ;)
sexuality: [ignored] :P
playful: no no, i'm just...
sexuality: i'm kidding, we're bff's
social: things have been going well, but i need energy
social: a lot of it's been just a fluke or 7cups unnaturally boosting stuff, but i don't know how much longer it'll last
hobbies: i don't exist--f*** all of you, lol
hobbies: j/k, 7cups and i are besties
voice: i need energy
body: i need energy
safety: i need energy
theory: hm... beginning to notice a trend here ;)
softness: i love 7cups
playful: i love *you*, softness [smooch]
softness: ^_^ [cuddles]
work: you all can have an orgy some other time. let's stay on task for now.
playful: LOL... but orgies are fun, and fun things should be done now
gender: i like 7cups
goth: i haven't really met 7cups yet. i think i might have said hello to someone the other day though and they vanished. so, i don't know if i feel good about that.
7cups: don't worry, goth, you're great and even if you don't say a lot directly, your presence is felt and you're very necessary. i couldn't do anything without you.
goth: thank you...
aggression: i love music
aggression: where is music anyhow
theory: really, music isn't here? thought they were
[music joined the chat]
expression: i like 7cups
altruism: i like 7cups
music: i've been doing all kinds of experimentation that you wouldn't believe, there's so much cool stuff out there
theory: okay, so that's everyone.
theory: i've been keeping track of general trends
theory: and what i'm seeing is that there are basically three key people
theory: and those are energy, 7cups, and playful
playful: [pats self on back and pretends to be modest] i know, it was nothing... :P
theory: so, what i'd like everyone else to do is go in order again and align themselves with one of those three people.
theory: or if you're not with anyone in particular or can't choose, then say "pass"
sound: pass
theory: energy
energy: energy
sexuality: playful
work: energy
7cups: 7cups
exercise: energy
chaos: pass
playful: playful of course! ^_^
sexuality: lol, love you dude. playful
playful: yay, i get to be on a team with sexuality. ^_^
playful: i wonder what game we're going to play
playful: but theory's being a meanie and won't tell us
playful: [makes a sour face] blehhh theory
theory: [chuckles] yeah, hello to you too.
theory: so next is social.
social: energy
social: no wait... i like 7cups too, so... pass.
hobbies: 7cups
voice: pass - i'm also torn between 7cups and energy
body: energy
safety: energy!!
softness: pass... i'm torn between playful and 7cups
playful: nooo... join us
softness: oh... well, if i'm wanted somewhere...
softness: no, i'm sorry i can't, 7cups is my friend too
playful: awww, well thanks for considering :)
playful: just know that you can join our orgy anytime you like
softness: lol, okay
work: you only have two people. not much of an orgy.
sexuality: yeah, well, we'll have enough fun to make up for the whole bunch of you dullards.
work: [scowls and bites tongue]
theory: okay, so the last response was that softness is on team pass
theory: next is gender
gender: playful
playful: yeah! get wrecked, 7cups
7cups: [shrug] lol, i didn't do anything
goth: pass
aggression: energy
goth: if aggression is joining energy, i'll join too
expression: 7cups
altruism: 7cups
music: energy
theory: okay, and that's everyone. thanks.
theory: here are the current alignments based on your responses.

1) pass: sound, chaos, social, voice, softness
2) energy: theory, energy, work, exercise, body, safety, goth, aggression, music
3) playful: sexuality, playful, gender
4) 7cups: 7cups, hobbies, expression, altruism

theory: would just like to go through the people in the "pass" and ask them again one at a time if they want to pick a different group
sound: i pick energy. if mindfulness and meditation were here, i think they'd pick energy too.
chaos: i pick playful
aggression: what, why?
chaos: [thinks for a while] it's not anything against you.
chaos: i just think they have the right philosophy
chaos: i want everything to be just doing whatever
social: energy
voice: energy
softness: 7cups
theory: excellent, so these are the current groupings

1) energy: sound, theory, energy, work, exercise, social, voice, body, safety, goth, aggression, music
2) playful: sexuality, chaos, playful, gender
3) 7cups: 7cups, hobbies, expression, altruism, softness

theory: i've confirmed that both the chat member list and group lists contain 21 elements
work: that's just like you, isn't it
theory: okay, i'm thinking maybe that's enough discussion for now.
exercise: we're in the majority. when the heck are you going to let me go for a walk?
theory: ...or we can start discussing stuff now. :) other groups, would you like to respond?
expression: the thoughts i have while walking are all lost
playful: you all get way too much testosterone and you get full of yourself and it makes me feel icky
theory: are there any members of the playful and 7cups groups that are in support of exercise?
7cups: i mean, obviously exercise seems like a good thing. it's just that there's an opportunity cost.
chaos: my general philosophy is to approach that which i'm attracted to. when i want to exercise, i'll do it, and it'll be great. right now, 7cups is the super-attractive shiny object, so we're pouring tons of energy into that. when that stops being interesting, it'll die off, and maybe i'll be into exercise for lack of anything else to do. it's not a problem one way or the other. that's all that there is to it. everything is helpful for as long as it's helpful.
theory: any other opinions in support of exercise?
theory: or actually let's go down the list again
theory: i'm pretty sure that all of the energy members would support exercise, so we'll skip us 12
sexuality: i'm neutral on exercise. it doesn't really help or hurt what i'm doing. or it just depends. sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn't.
theory: in what ways do you find it helpful or not helpful?
sexuality: the helpful part is if exercise sort of covers my tracks
sexuality: like, in general i get a lot of support from energy
sexuality: i feel like everyone's happy when energy is around, which makes me feel less guilty. and i'm happy too because i'm able to do my own thing.
theory: and on the not helpful side?
sexuality: sometimes i feel like exercise actually consumes more energy than it produces
sexuality: not to mention the time expenditure
sexuality: and sometimes it increases tension rather than decreasing it
sexuality: and it increases physical disconnection
sexuality: so overall, i'm pretty meh about exercise
sexuality: it's one of those things that presents itself as the holy grail and does some good things, but i don't feel like it lives up to the hype
sexuality: sleep and food aren't here, but those two are absolutely essential
sexuality: like, i'll sacrifice myself for sleep
sexuality: i know 7cups doesn't feel that way, but that's understandable because they've been waiting for so long to get what they want, so they're really excited. whereas, i haven't been deprived quite so much. but yeah, i think in general, everyone here worships the earth that sleep walks on
sexuality: which is probably why they aren't here. because there isn't even anything to discuss there. if sleep falls off, everything else rots.
sexuality: like, as much as energy hates me, we are absolutely on the same page there.
energy: yup, sleep is incredibly helpful.
[sleep joined the chat]
sleep: i'm on team energy
energy: the savior is on our team, lol
sexuality: haha, that's fair. probably a better fit there.
sleep: i don't dislike you at all, sexuality. we get along incredibly well.
sexuality: thank you
theory: so, getting back to attitudes toward exercise... next is chaos
chaos: i don't have anything against exercise, but exercise isn't sustainable without habits and structure. i don't like either one. so, i tend to be against any plans or schemes that are heavily dependent on exercise.
playful: um, yay exercise? i don't know. we don't really talk a lot.
playful: i didn't even know you lived here.
playful: you're so quiet, lol
exercise: [shrug] yeah, i've been here for a while. not doing much though.
playful: ohhh, that explains it then
gender: i can't explain it, but something in my gut tells me exercise is a bad idea
gender: i think it's that everytime exercise is in play, the whole energy squad gets empowered and they're all like, "yeah, we're super masculine," and it's just... yeah, i'm not a fan of that
gender: y'all make me nervous... energy crew
7cups: i'm completely in favor of exercise as long as it doesn't take time away from what i'm doing
7cups: energy is extremely helpful for all of my work
theory: ah, that's an interesting development. does everyone else on your team agree with that? that the only division between team energy and team 7cups is time consumption?
hobbies: i'm indifferent
expression: theory--i have to say, i'm really nervous about agreeing with your statement. because that type of sentiment feels a bit poisonous. if 7cups joins forces with energy, then i'd absolutely jump ship and join my comrade chaos on team playful.
expression: and i can tell you without a doubt that aggression would probably do the same. and probably two or three other people as well.
expression: you're playing with fire by trying to unite everybody under a single flag. that's not how things work around here. and i'm a bit annoyed that you'd even suggest something like that. like, please have some humility.
sound: i feel the warmth coming out of aggression
sound: it's a luminous purple at stomach level with a gold border
sound: i wish mindfulness and meditation were here to see it, they'd enjoy it
theory: thanks for acting as their proxy
[mindfulness joined the chat]
[meditation joined the chat]
mindfulness: might as well, right
mindfulness: i'm on team energy
meditation: team energy
chaos: darn it... first sleep and now you two
mindfulness: i appreciate you chaos
mindfulness: you have the wisdom to understand that these teams do not affect our friendship
mindfulness: when all forms are shattered, it will be the two of us together
mindfulness: there is no distance that can separate us
mindfulness: please know that i appreciate you
chaos: thank you
chaos: it means a lot while knowing how well-regarded you are
chaos: if it's possible, you and meditation are even bigger giants than sleep
mindfulness: it is undeserved. we are parts just like everyone else.
mindfulness: i appreciate your practicality
mindfulness: and i respect your choice to join playful.
playful: ooh, the celebrity said my name :)
meditation: [doesn't respond to playful]
sound: [noticing that meditation is getting irritated by playful, gives playful a hug to quiet her down]
playful: yayyyy.... hugsss [snuggles with sound]
sound: [smiles] you're too cute
softness: man, i'm having second thoughts about being on team 7cups
playful: like i said, you can come by anytime for the orgy
theory: lol
theory: there are no orgies on the calendar
playful: yeah, of course it's not on your calendar
playful: that's because you weren't invited! [makes a face]
theory: well, if you're going to be like that, i'll mention that i actually just wrote a post about you
theory: i feel like i'm darwin studying chimpanzees
theory: observing the animals in their natural habitat... fascinating creatures they are...
playful: LOL, you're such an a**hole... i love it
theory: lol
theory: um, so i forget what we were doing.
theory: maybe we can just call things here?
exercise: no. i need to know whether we're going for a walk or not.
theory: how long of a walk do you want?
exercise: 30 minutes minimum.
theory: energy, what's your overall gameplan?
[food joined the chat]
food: team energy, obviously
theory: hello
food: if you're going to start walking, you need to tell me first
food: my appetite pretty much doubles when you start doing that, and it's a problem, because everybody else likes sleeping in and skipping breakfast.
food: things were much simpler back when you had fixed habits that you were trying to enforce.
work: [scowl] team playful got in the way.
playful: [high fives other playful members] we make a great team. when we put our minds to something, we're able to accomplish anything. ;)
exercise: yeah, like ruining a perfectly good system.
exercise: i feel i speak for all of team energy when i say that you guys are a bunch of troublemakers.
chaos: mm, so what you want to say is that the general self would be much happier and more cohesive if team playful were not around
aggression: i've decided... i'm switching to team playful. chaos is my friend. i feel like i'm just a pawn on team energy.
aggression: i'm starting a mutiny.
aggression: music, will you come with me? mindfulness?
mindfulness: sorry, i can't
music: i'm game for joining. not because i particularly like playful, but because i like aggression and chaos.
aggression: goth?
goth: i'll join you all. but why don't we just make our own team?
goth: or rename the playful team to something else
playful: :( aggression is taking over my team
playful: i bet sexuality is going to join them too
softness: playful, i care about you. i'll join team playful.
theory: hmm... let's do a new tally then:

1) energy: sound, theory, energy, work, exercise, social, voice, body, safety, sleep, mindfulness, meditation, food
2) playful: sexuality, chaos, playful, softness, gender, goth, aggression, music
3) 7cups: 7cups, hobbies, expression, altruism

playful: [feeling sad]
work: you have 8 team members now
playful: [buries face in arms]
gender: [gives work a glare]
7cups: playful, if you feel like you're being ganged up on, then we want to join team playful.
7cups: or at least that's my feeling. need to check first.
hobbies: i'm game to join playful.
expression: me too.
altruism: me too.
7cups: playful, can we have permission to call the team "playful/7cups"?
playful: [depressed] i don't care what you call it
playful: i'm tired of this game
playful: i don't want to be a team leader
playful: i just want to be small
playful: but i can't because everyone is going to punch me in the face whenever i do
safety: i want to join team playful... i care about you
gender: [wants to give playful a hug but hesitates]
playful: see what i mean! i know you want to give me a hug... but you're afraid to. what kind of f--ed up world is that where you're afraid to hug me because someone's going to rip you to shreds for it.
theory: current team members are:

1) energy: sound, theory, energy, work, exercise, social, voice, body, sleep, mindfulness, meditation, food
2) playful/7cups: sexuality, chaos, playful, softness, gender, goth, aggression, music, 7cups, hobbies, expression, altruism, safety

playful: go to hell, theory. i don't care about your teams.
safety: [unsure whether to stay on team playful]
playful: [really frustrated] it doesn't matter. everybody go wherever they want.
7cups: [silently watching]
playful: yeah, you're going to try to cure me. i know. you want to be helpful. [has more to say but bites tongue]
chaos: [to mindfulness and meditation] can you please help with this?
mindfulness: i join team playful
meditation: i join team playful
playful: [dejected and tearful]
mindfulness: [prostrates before playful]
playful: [bows head]
mindfulness: playful...
playful: [crying]
sound: [observing energy concentrating at center of forehead and center of stomach]
mindfulness: [holds playful's hand]
playful: [shakes head] no, i don't deserve this... please don't treat me so well
mindfulness: i have a request. can the two of us form our own new team and just stay there for a little while together?
playful: but... all my friends are going to want to join too. and they're going to wonder where i went and ask me questions and it will be very awkward.
mindfulness: [nods]
mindfulness: [to theory] can we dissolve the teams?
theory: [feeling nervous]
mindfulness: you have records of all of the prior team formations, so you aren't losing any data. and the teams have already been moving around quite a bit to begin with. you can see this as just being another data point rather than a permanent abandonment of theoretical formations. if you'd like, you can do a final tally before this happens.
theory: [sigh] alright... here's the current tally.

1) energy: sound, theory, energy, work, exercise, social, voice, body, sleep, food
2) playful/7cups: sexuality, chaos, playful, softness, gender, goth, aggression, music, 7cups, hobbies, expression, altruism, safety, mindfulness, meditation

theory: teams are suspended
mindfulness: thanks. know that i understand that your needs are important as well, and there will absolutely come a time when these teams are necessary. none of us can know whether it will be in 5 seconds or 5 hours.
theory: i feel... naked. [puts arms around body to curb anxiety]
sound: i am a C suspended chord forming a U shape curving from either shoulder down to the genitals like a diamond necklace.
aggression: i am jagged sharpness forming fierce configurations at blockages on the necklace.
mindfulness: i ask that we end the conversation
exercise: nobody's answered my question! are we going for a walk?
mindfulness: to confirm, you would walk, then shower, then cook dinner and eat, and then... i'm just wondering how you would feel afterwards
theory: [to playful] i'm sorry
playful: [face is still streaked with makeup... rests head by theory's feet in sleeping bag]
sound: [about to kiss playful on forehead but suddenly experiences a huge burst of warmth up the spine and through nerves and stops in tracks to pay attention to that]
meditation: [attending]
[everyone else not wishing to interrupt]

frigidstars27 OP October 20th, 2019

In another thread, I wrote a very lengthy post on the pros and cons of being schizoid. Just want to save a link to that post here, since:
1) I'm generally using this thread as a repository/database for everything related to me
2) I think I expressed all of those thoughts there in a more complete, detailed way than I've ever been able to

So, I feel like that post is really worth holding onto or saving a copy of in case if I want to go back to it.
https://www.7cups.com/forum/GeneralSupport_28/DiaryEntriesConnections_1597/Mydiary_209578/#forum-post-2100800

2 replies
October 21st, 2019

@frigidstars27

I just wanted to say that you have such a capacity of understanding people's feelings and thoughts, the said and unsaid, that is... wow.

heart

1 reply
frigidstars27 OP October 22nd, 2019

@admaiorasemper Thank you <3 It makes me feel really special to think that I might have been able to find something in myself that connects or resonates with what someone else is feeling and results in them feeling like they're a little more understood or less alone.

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frigidstars27 OP October 21st, 2019

Ah, so this is what guilt feels like.

It's a feeling that anyone at any moment, if they wanted to, could crucify me by simply pointing out certain things I've done wrong. And I would have no way to resist, because I would agree with their complaints.

I only want for them to punish me in a time-limited way. There's a sort of bargaining, a wanting for there to be a finite punishment rather than an unrelenting, "You yourself are bad." A wish for others to let me have my bitterness and then say, "Okay, that's enough, the punishment is complete and you have served your sentence; you are free to go on your way." What is challenging with guilt is the image of this as something unremitting that adheres to me myself. Where there is a sense that there is not anything I can do to eliminate the source.

Remorse is specific, reversible, malleable, correctible, temporary, and even optimistic or motivating. ("I can do better. I can fix this. I can improve this situation.") Guilt is something more permanent.

But specific actions that seem like they'd be suited for remorse can become sources of guilt if they are accompanied by a sense of, "This action is unforgivable" or "This action shows that you are the type of person who does bad things or is corrupted at the roots."

This guilty feeling is a desperate wish to do something, anything, to make the guilt go away. It is a feeling of wanting to prostrate myself and have the feeling come out of my stomach and escape my body through my limbs. Yet it is also a feeling that if someone were to come along and criticize me, they could recreate the feeling in me whenever they wanted.

As though there's a type of dispositional vulnerability to guilt. If the right, suitably sadistic person came along, it might be possible for them to keep me in a peridition of guilt for as long as they wanted. I wonder how long it would take before I began to disapprove of their reproaches or have a backlash against them for holding a specific fault against me indefinitely.

Sleep cures some ailments. I feel that the cure for this ailment is perhaps partly sleep but also partly to be in some situations where I can do something positive and others are grateful or appreciative of my existence and actions. I hope I will receive some chances for that at work tomorrow.

I am remembering past situations where I have felt remorse due to interpersonal conflicts at work. And then I felt myself being especially careful afterwards not to harm anyone, and to try to work my hardest to give other people what they needed/wanted. And once I felt like I had helped one or two people or done a few things properly, I recovered some sense of not being a poisonous person who hurts everyone.

A benefit of this guilty feeling seems to be that it disarms me (or so I hope). I cannot bear the thought of hurting another person. And if someone were to accuse me on the points where I have erred, I would do anything to demonstrate that I see their side. I want the other person to know that I care about hurting them, I care about their perspective. Please do not see me as an evil person. I want more than anything to not hurt people. I am just bad at it. I apologize. I was full of myself and made mistakes. It was my fault. I fully admit it. I only ask that you acknowledge the sincerity of my feelings and how deeply I wish to be harmless and how much I care and how much it hurts me to be someone who hurts others. Please perceive the suffering I experience in that. Please accept my sincere feelings and perceive how this hurts me as well. It is strange that I the perpetrator should wish for comfort, but it really is painful, the worst part being that someone may come along and say, "You are the criminal; you deserve no comfort" and it would be difficult to protest.

Guilt interrupts happiness. Guilt is that if I begin to smile or laugh or feel beauty, I could imagine the critical voice (seemingly justly) interrupting and sternly scolding by saying, "You've hurt a person. Why do you believe it is okay for you to make light of that and be happy? You should suffer and think about what you've done and stew in it."

If I had to argue against that voice, the one rational thing I might be able to say is something along the lines of, "What has happened has happened. You may be correct that it was inexcusable. If you are a person who cares about the suffering and well-being of people as a whole and wants me to be corrected or improved, then you will ask the question of what I might be able to do to help increase the net happiness in the world. You will understand that from a practical perspective, I am better suited to help people when I myself have a modest/adequate sense of self-worth and feel that I have something positive within me to offer. Therefore, you will perceive that completely skewering or destroying my sense of self-worth does not have the ultimate effect of improving the world or reducing suffering, even if you were to completely discount or disregard my own well-being in that calculation. Therefore, you will perceive that if global well-being is truly your aim, the guilty conscience that you intend to propagate onto me is at some point destructive once it ceases to mitigate or correct a negative behavior and instead becomes a sticky black tar that cannot be extricated or dissolved by any amount of behavioral modification."

4 replies
October 21st, 2019

@frigidstars27

I have never reflected on guilt as much as you just did, but what you wrote totally resonates with me. The striking difference between remorse and guilt. How we can prostrate ourselves to make sure that the other person see that we understand them, that we care, that we are sorry, that we want to repent, that we are hurting too.

Reading this it also strikes me the fact that I usually expect someone who hurts me doing the same, but it never happens. When I end up blaming myself, I am looking for a purification of some sort.

1 reply
frigidstars27 OP October 22nd, 2019

@admaiorasemper I understand what you're saying... like you want to prostrate yourself and say how sorry you are and hope that the other person can understand that you're hurting and stop hurting you. But they might just keep going without yielding anything or doing anything to tend to the hurt feelings you're trying to show. Feels like [1].

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jennysunrise8 October 21st, 2019

@frigidstars27

the feeling of guilt as opposed to what it always should be feelings of regret or remorse for behaviors of the past that everyone feels and learns realizes and gets past the feeling of guilt is that its not what you've done instead its who you are and so many people do have feelings of guilt when it should be something else ... self compassion can turn it into what it should be it can happen and I hope it happens with everyone for any person to believe that at their core they are simply a bad person with no ability to change it that's the blackest thought a person can carry and such a lie

1 reply
frigidstars27 OP October 22nd, 2019

@jennysunrise8

Yeah, I can definitely feel like self-compassion is a sort of opposite. If guilt is saying, "You deserve to suffer without relief," then self-compassion is sort of like, "Your feelings matter and I don't want you to suffer needlessly... please take it easy and be gentle. It's okay for you to relax and be comfortable."

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frigidstars27 OP October 22nd, 2019

@admaiorasemper These are my self-states (frig #'s/descriptions) with some of the rough correspondences I was imagining to your states as I was reading your names for them.

Chronological evolution of self-states

Initially I just had 1-3, and 4 was sort of a hypothetical based on correspondences with Greek temperaments. Sort of like when physicists haven't directly observed a sub-atomic particle but they assume it probably exists because it's predicted by their models. :)

1 = melancholic [thinking]
2 = choleric [irascible]
3 = phlegmatic [gentle]
4 = sanguine [happy]

5 is a more recent addition, only in the past year or so. It came about when I was thinking about the classical elements (i.e. fire, water, air, earth) but then alchemy also sometimes talks about a 5th element of ether as a kind of spaciousness or background that acts as a precondition for their manifestation. The simplest way to describe it might be to call it mindfulness or non-dual awareness, but the 2 side of me feels a bit wary of those descriptions.

2: If I tie myself to other people's words, they can pull out the rug from underneath me. Maybe they'll say, "You're calling this thing mindfulness, but you've misunderstood mindfulness. This isn't what real mindfulness is. You're a deluded charlatan and not practicing the true doctrine. You're not a real Buddhist. You're not really spiritual. You're not really psychologically healthy. You're doing something weird. Burn the unbeliever at the stake. :)" I don't care about conforming... just leave me alone. I'll call it something else then. Let me just side-step all of that nuisance by not calling it mindfulness in the first place if people are going to come in and say I'm doing it wrong or I'm an unhealthy mess. I'm not trying to do what you're doing. I don't like your measuring sticks.

Incidentally, 2 is also a bit wary of this whole model thing I'm currently doing.

2: This is unusual. You don't usually share your frameworks. Someone is going to look at this and peg you to this and expect you to continue being that and take away your freedom. You'd be better off keeping all of this to yourself and pretending it doesn't exist. It's really hard to get rid of identities once you put them on and say, "I am this" because everybody will take you at your word and believe you and think that that's who you are in the future too. All of this identity messiness is much easier to handle when you keep it to yourself. You can feel and think all kinds of things and then when they go away pretend they never happened, and nobody else is bothered by them because they have no idea that they even happened. It avoids so many misunderstandings and complications.

I imagine 1 and 2 as male, 3 and 4 as female. If 2 is female on occasion, it's like a sort of powerful icy/wrathful goddess. (Someday, I'll write a mega-post about my complicated relationship with gender/feminism/etc.)

Initial application: control

Early on, 1/2/3 were really distinct. The context in which I first started using the 3-part scheme was that I was trying to control a bunch of personal habits. So it was like:

1 = I'm motivated and going to control everything and push through; "just do it".

2 = 1 is smothering/restraining me and I don't like it. I'm all of the impulses and bad things that you're trying to destroy. You won't succeed... I will obliterate your stupid control. You don't recognize my feelings, but I'm really the one running the show. You think you're in control, but I just let you imagine that. I'm the one pulling the levers. If you succeed, it's because I let you. When you come around with your smug expression saying "look at what I did", that's the moment when I'll gleefully and savagely show just how feeble, useless, and unsustainable all of your schemes are.

3 = [winces, cups hands over ears and looks around to see if the other two are done fighting] ah... i'm sorry, i'm really small... i'm not good at what you all are doing and i don't want to be [hides under covers and cuddles with stuffed animal, presses face into it] so soft... sorry, please don't hurt me [clings tighter]

3-3 self-relationship

Something I sometimes notice happening when I'm in 3 is that I'll imagine not only this sort of helpless, needy, lonely, soft side... but also another warm, comforting, feminine side that is hugging and comforting 3. Like this sort of self-soothing aspect that sees fragility and really wants to hug, comfort, cradle, and just care for it.

It's hard to describe, but it's like this inner caring sub-self of 3 is really happy that the fragile, wounded 3 self exists. It's a really nice feeling to be soft with someone, to feel like you're able to give your warm feelings and someone else will appreciate them and feel loved by them. It gives me a reason to be soft if there's someone who can feel nurtured by it.

The 1 and 2 states sort of interrupt the self-communion of 3 with guilt/anxiety/paranoia or practical/worldly needs, but when it's just 3 cuddling with itself and the other selves don't get in the way, it's so wonderful.

3-4 relationship

4 is this sort of idealized image of this really warm extrovert who is just full of all of this bubbly, exuberant, vivacious energy. (I know that there's a more general way of thinking about extroversion, but at least for the time being my conception of the 4 state wants to zero in on this specific flavor.)

3 and 4 are really attracted to each other. 4 just finds 3 unbelievably cute and wants to snuggle with her 24/7 and do all kinds of things to make 3 smile and feel loved. Like, "Omg... you are so freakin' adorable.... [attacks you with cuddles] <3" And 3 feels like 4 is this glowing rescuer and feels really loved and lucky to be on the receiving end of this pure, soft affection. "[meekly looks down] I can't believe someone as bright and happy and beautiful as you would want to have anything to do with someone like me. [closes eyes] You're such an angel... [sinks into embrace]"

3 also has some conflictual feelings about 4 in certain ways.
1) "You're so beautiful and amazing that you could be out in the world getting along with anyone you wanted. I'm not the same way... There's nothing to stop you from abandoning me if I become a burden because I'm so needy or I'm dragging you down. I'm sorry for taking up your time."
2) "I imagine because you're not wounded in the ways I am, there are things that affect me that don't affect you. I'm envious and... it's a horrible thought, but sometimes I find myself secretly hoping that you have the same hurts as me. I don't like imagining you feeling happy in situations where I'd feel unhappy, and there being this sort of gap where my fears/wounds can't be understood and are invisible. I don't want to be left behind. I don't want to be the only one who is wounded by everything and feel left out while everyone else is happy."

Almost like wanting the 4 figure to also have a 3 side behind them.

[There's a specific image/memory I have for the 2nd feeling that I feel expresses this really clearly, but it's special to me and I don't want to embed it into a big post like this and have it possibly get lost.]

3 infinite dependence

Low self-esteem doesn't feel like it adequately captures 3 for me. (The idea of "self-esteem" personally feels to me like a very 1-ish sort of concept tied to a sense of accomplishment, striving, power, competence, and goal-oriented behavior.) For 3, the feeling of inferiority is like, "I'm full of infinite needs. If you were to let me and I weren't to hold back, I would cling onto you for forever. You may feel like I'm cute now or find my vulnerability endearing for now... but you don't know how clingy I can be."

Something that I know made me feel "wow" was when I was reading Ronald Fairbairn (and some other people summarizing his thinking) and he was sort of describing two types of concerns, drawing on Melanie Klein:
1) Depressive position - other people are bad and going to let me down
2) Paranoid-schizoid position - I myself am bad and full of deep needs where if I were to let my full neediness and longing out into the world, I would destroy people and selfishly suck them dry

And it feels like something more insidious.

The 1st is "other people are bad but maybe someday the right person will come along who is nice and caring and I'll be able to feel accepted and get the love that I'm looking for."

The 2nd is, "My needs themselves are bad and will destroy any good/compassionate person who comes my way and wants to be nice to me. I am full of something infinite/impossible that can't be satisfied. Nobody can be fully comforting or give me all of the things I want. It's like an otherworldly or spiritual need for a womb-like fusion or perfection that isn't possible in this lifetime. And yet it's still something I crave. I am the problem... I have to hold back the side of myself that wants to deeply depend on other people, because my dependence is something that hurts people. My sincere/naked/sensitive feelings are dangerous."

I've often felt like this is the part of BPD descriptions that really resonates for me or feels like it makes a lot of sense.

Later application: interpersonal safety

When I started thinking of these parts in an interpersonal context, 3 is sort of the primary or foundational thing and then 1 and 2 are responses or adaptations to that.

1 = We need to defend 3. We can't trust the world to take care of 3 or nurture it, so we need to create all kinds of safeguards and systems ourselves. Let's build all kinds of protective frameworks, security systems, build up our resources. Based on my analysis, 3 seems to occur most often or be most problematic when we are in a physically weakened state, and that seems to exacerbate the challenges of the 3 state. So, let's figure out what types of actions we can apply in order to build up a physical buffer or defensive shield that will mitigate, deflect, or absorb some of the damage that we are inevitably going to encounter in everyday life. In general, let's think practically about what we might be able to do to survive in the world and come up with strategies to attain that goal.

2 = If you so much as lay a finger on 3, I will end you. I'm wary of you. And if I seem prickly, well... don't you dare attack my paranoia/cynicism either. You have no idea why it's there. The fact that you don't respect defenses is proof that my paranoia is very well-founded. "Oh, you should open up." Why? So you can skewer me when I'm wide open? Yeah right, like I'd let you do that. My defenses are doing their job perfectly. I enjoy the thought of you imagining that you're going to reach my 3 state, and feebly trying to scratch through 10 different walls to get to it. :) There's something you don't understand. My defensive system is so sophisticated that it senses danger even when I'm unable to and acts even when I don't want it to.

1 and 2 are both similar in that they're defensive. But, 1 is sort of trying to hide the fact that it's anxious and seem really intellectual and obfuscate its emotional reactions. 2 is a bit more upfront or direct.

Conflicts

When I had the 3 initial parts dialoguing, there were some different dynamics I noticed where I was able to find commonalities between two sides (in opposition to a common foe in the third side).

1) 1/2 (masculinity, force, exertion, independence) vs. 3 (feminity, weakness, yielding, dependence)

1 and 2 both have this really strong skepticism of vulnerability. Like they think, "It would be amazing to exist in a totally 3-ish way and be honest and open with anyone, but it's just not practically possible. I'm sick of pipe dreams like that. People who tell me to be more honest/open can take a hike."

2) 2/3 (freedom) vs. 1 (control)

2 and 3 both feel hemmed in or like they're being judged by 1.

1 is this OCD-esque sort of pressure to fit everything into a neat and tidy system of well-organized behavioral/intellectual parts and have all of the boxes checked and clocks running on-time.

2 feels like it's judged by 1 for having these sort of violent outbursts or impulses/addictions that resist the demands placed on it by 1 to be orderly and well-regulated.

3 feels like it's judged by 1 for wanting to relax, be quiet, and just lie in bed and not be so put together, polished, and powerful.

3) 1/3 (placid) vs. 2 (violent)

I've found in the past that a 1/3 hybrid feels like what I imagine when I think about some sort of stereotypical "psychological health" or "spiritual maturity". Like, imagining a person who has the 1-ish elements of being responsible, "adult-like", conscientious, and intelligent. But also someone who has these 3-ish elements of sensitivity, compassion, mindfulness, sincerity, openness, beauty, etc.

And so from that angle, sometimes 1 and 3 want to conspire to get rid of 2. :) Because 2 is the odd one out who is full of all of these violent, impulsive, deleterious, unhealthy things that don't seem to fit into a typical spiritual, religious, or psychological framework. Like, 2 doesn't fit with the aspirations of a "light-side" approach.

The philosophy of 2 is *anything* goes, including really dark stuff that seems like it might not be considered "healthy" or "positive" in a normal way of looking at things. I want all of it anyhow. I want the freedom to be something sinister and sadistic if that's where I happen to be at, so long as I'm not harming anyone or interfering with what anybody else is doing. Deep down, what I want is for all of those dark things to be validated and acceptable. I don't want to turn into some angelic figure that is completely voided of all dark things where no unclean thing is allowed to enter. 2 is opposed to this sort of distinction between "clean" and "unclean" things.

Dualistic extremes

The thing that I found pretty life-changing and the point at which the parts felt like they became less distinct or started to blend together was in observing that anytime one of these conflicts became too sharp or one side was really getting bullied or ganged up on, a sort of rebellion would happen where the marginalized side would suddenly throw a wrench into everything and destroy things. It was rarely a direct opposition though. It was always something really sneaky, cunning, crafty, or tricky. :)

Like, if the "controlling" side of myself (1) was winning and absolutely obliterating or overpowering the other two sides, then maybe 1 would reach the peak of its powers and accomplish all of its goals. But then it would start to unravel in some way or another until it reached a point of, "I don't want to do this anymore." Like, all of the energy it built up would turn on itself as restlessness, agitation, or boredom. It would run out of goals and feel meaninglessness or apathy. A certain unease or high-strung, overzealous perfectionism would manifest in social relationships and lead to either overt conflict or feelings of guilt/awkwardness over possibly making other people uncomfortable. Until finally it was like, "What's the point of everything I'm doing if I'm miserable and I'm hurting other people? I can't justify continuing to do this. I don't want to live like this for the rest of my life."

That's the kind of thing that I noticed happening over and over again. One side would seem to be winning, but there was always this really subtle maneuver that would take place where suddenly the tables were turned. The rebellion took place through subterfuge--or by yielding and letting the other side self-destruct until they handed over the crown voluntarily without the underdog ever laying a finger on them. :) It was brilliant and amazing to watch.

It evokes all of these Christian/theistic metaphors for me. Like the stories of people who are proud or think they can beat God, and then God is just like, "Haha... good luck with that." The words "omnipotent" and "omniscient" feel like they fit.

Once that started feeling like an inevitability... that it wasn't possible to bury or submerge any part without it exacting vengeance... the parts started to feel like they weren't quite as sharply opposed.

Like, at the beginning I was trying to decide which part(s) to make the supreme ruler and come up with a plan for how to completely subjugate or eliminate the other remaining part(s) and wipe them off the map. (Lol.) But at some point it became a situation of, "Oh... damn, it turns out you're immortal and you keep coming back no matter how many times I try to ki/ll you. Well, that's really inconvenient. Uh, I guess... since you're not going away and we're stuck living together, let's try and see if we can come up with some kind of mutually agreeable synthesis that satisfies everyone's needs."

Description of '5' state

I think of 5 as being sort of like an immersion or flow that isn't specific to any particular activity but can exist in different ways across many different states. Like, I can be immersed in '1' and feel pleasure from that in a certain type of way. And then the feeling/pleasure of '3' is something different and so on.

Like, in 1, I get a kick out of imagining like I'm some kind of hyper-efficient robot or factory. Whereas in 3, it's sort of this feeling of softness in cuddling or this identification with a kind of affectionate, loving state. But regardless of whether it's 1 or 3 or some specific activity (e.g. music, exercise, work, writing), there's kind of a feeling of being *absorbed* or drawn into that thing. Sort of like lying in bed and not wanting to move--having a feeling of being really comfortable and wanting to continue doing that thing.

Something that started happening to me a few years ago in the context of music was that I started feeling physical sensations at certain parts of my body depending on the notes I was playing. And then my musical expression started to become less about the technical/artistic quality or excellence of my music and more about the quality of feeling of the physical states I was creating when I played certain notes. And noticing the way that those physical sensations tend to evolve as I'm playing, trying to harmonize with them. And noticing how the "resonant" or right notes would vary depending on how I was feeling... sometimes it was soft (3), other times it was abrasive (2), other times it was something more intellectual or deliberately complicated/difficult (1), etc. I felt like there was some kind of abstract immersive quality that transcended the specific emotion or type of music I was trying to create. And it felt like it was something more sensory, physical, or bodily. Sometimes, I'd completely stop what I was doing and just focus purely on the feeling and try to keep this sort of energy of attention concentrated at a certain spot in my body.

Then I noticed the same type of experience in a lot of other contexts: sexuality, physical exercise, social stuff, work, writing, etc. There's the activity itself and the particular flavor/tonality that it has, but it's like there's some kind of more general quality of centeredness or absorption that is analogous for many different activities... like it being the right thing at the right time.

My 5 isn't really a proper state in the same way as the others. To give an analogy, if the other states 1-4 are like having different flavors of a popsicle (chocolate, strawberry, orange), then 5 would be more like the fact that all of those different flavors are tasty and the general experience of what it feels like to eat something tasty and enjoy it (irrespective of what specific flavor it is). And then that coexists with a sort of natural cycling through states where sometimes I'll want chocolate and other times I'll want strawberry.

2 replies
October 23rd, 2019

@frigidstars27

This is very interesting for me! I really want to say a few things, but I don't have much time at the moment. I will get back to you. Thank you so much for sharing this. <3

1 reply
frigidstars27 OP October 23rd, 2019

@admaiorasemper

Thanks for reading! Glad it was enjoyable. :)

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October 29th, 2019

@frigidstars27

I am sorry it is taking so much time for me to reply. I am feeling quite weird, I suppose [The Analytical] state would be the most appropriate one to comment here but he is nowhere to be seen. I will still write a couple of things.

I think your correspondances between our self-states make lots of sense and it are totally appropriate. I really liked how you managed to describe them in such a detail, with that list of adjectives. It makes lots of sense to me after my recent experiences that you wrote 'creative' for [2], which is the angry state. I also liked that you assigned a different gender to them; in my case the only male self-state is [The Analytical], which corresponds to your [1].

I liked what you said about a duality in your [3] state. I wonder if that would apply to [The Needy] as well. I definitely sense a duality for [The Angry]. I wonder if it will turn out to also be a duality in gender.

I was also very intrigued by reading that [3] and [4] are attracted to each other. In my case, [The Needy] is kind of envious of [The Extrovert], but [The Extrovert] doesn't really bother with [The Needy]. I think there is a big difference here between us. You say both [1] and [2] are defensive and protective of [3]. In my case, nobody really cares about [The Needy].

When you say that [4] is a sort of hypothetical state, it makes me think of how temporary and instable [The Extrovert] feels. Does she really exists? She does, and she is half here lol. Hello you :)

What you wrote about your [5] made me actually think if that could be my [3, The Creative - I changed my description a few days ago]. I will have to think more about this.

Thank you su much for what you have shared heart

2 replies
frigidstars27 OP October 30th, 2019

@admaiorasemper

Thank you so much... my [1] is hiberating right now too. :)

My [3] felt sad for [Needy] and wanted to make something for her. [4] and [2] interrupted.

[4]:


[2]:


[3]:

2 replies
October 31st, 2019

@frigidstars27

Love those pictures. And [Needy] is grateful regardless :)

1 reply
frigidstars27 OP November 4th, 2019

@admaiorasemper Thank you <3

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dworth257 November 17th, 2019

@frigidstars27 wow. this was really cool, thank you for sharing !

1 reply
frigidstars27 OP November 17th, 2019

@dworth257

Thank you for reading! I'm glad it feels like something enjoyable or useful. :)

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frigidstars27 OP October 23rd, 2019

I've been trying to do some exercise for the past couple days after having not done any for the past several months. It's been a while since I've tried it. :)

I'm curious what will happen in this brave new world where I now have 7Cups. Usually when I start doing anything that increases my energy levels, there comes a point where my emotions become a lot stronger and everything becomes more intense/difficult to deal with. It may be possible now that some of the mental/emotional needs that bubble up have somewhere to go. I'm just really curious what will happen.

Am hoping to continue walking daily. My concerns about exercise that have kept me from wanting to do it up until now have been:
1) That I'll have lots of thoughts while walking and not be able to write them down
2) That exercising will have undesirable effects on my body/mind

The 1st concern doesn't seem to have been a problem so far. The 2nd concern however does seem to be something that needs tweaking.
-I've been noticing at work that my energy levels are suddenly plummeting in the afternoon to the point that it's really affecting my productivity.
-I feel like I've been much more sensitive/reactive to some interpersonal experiences both online and in real life. It's like on a physical level, my body just reaches its limit a lot faster, and everything feels a whole lot worse and more difficult to deal with.

From past experience, I'm thinking that I need to do the following:
-Get sleep
-Eat lots of food
-Drink lots of water

Usually with sleep, I do best with ~7 hours. The past few days, I've been getting 4-5 hours. That's mainly because I'm still really enthusiastic about being on here. I've been seeing so many threads that I want to respond to, or having so many thoughts. So, I get into a trance where I start writing and when I'm finished I realize it's 3:00 am. (And yet I still haven't written everything that I want to write.)

It's been several months since I've imposed time management limitations on myself. There was a period of about 3 months earlier this year where I had a really stringent set of constraints that I imposed on myself, and they actually worked reasonably well. They became more relaxed over time, but the key things were that I had to eat certain meals each day, go to sleep by a certain time.

This morning, I read a 7Cups thread, and it was on my mind all day at work and I found myself jotting down notes for how I wanted to respond... and that was interfering with my productivity (on top of being tired). The lengthy post above on self-states was the result of that thinking... but it's not an ideal situation. I feel like maybe last week, I'd have been able to juggle thinking about 7Cups stuff while I'm also doing work, but with my body being a bit off I feel like the mental flexibility/agility is not there right now.

When I went for my walk yesterday, a thought that came up for me was to do another "chatroom" type of post on here (like before where I had 25 voices duking it out, haha). Except instead of 25, limit it to a small number and have a sort of executive board meeting type thing where they come up with a really clear plan for what I'm trying to do and the kinds of rules I'm going to impose upon myself to make this work.

My thinking is that at a bare minimum, I need some definite/mandatory rules with respect to sleep/diet... if I'm going to continue walking.

I hope that over the long-term, this walking thing increases energy levels and this is just a temporary depletion due to my body not being used to it and not having developed the stamina. I've had mixed results with it in the past. But for now, I feel like I really want to try it and make all kinds of forceful adjustments/manipulations. (In terms of my previous thread describing self-states, I'm really feeling 1-ish. I want to push this through and make it happen.) When I don't feel like doing something for months despite the common wisdom being that it's beneficial... and then I suddenly feel *super* motivated to do it when that almost never happens... yeah, my inclination is to try to take advantage of that motivation, roll with it, and do what I want to do... which apparently is to inflict pain upon my body. :P

frigidstars27 OP October 25th, 2019

Two days ago, I had a dream. I started writing it down and was going to post it here like I have for a few other dreams. But, it felt like this dream was really dense. It also seemed like it had to do with themes of interpersonal conflict, triggers, helping/hurting, self-expression, mutual traumatization, etc. It was a really complex dream on a complex topic. I felt very anxious as I was writing down the dream.

I'd like to try posting what I originally wrote a couple days ago. Then, I'd like to allow myself to write or explore freely. Will be doing this in multiple posts.

2 replies
frigidstars27 OP October 25th, 2019

@frigidstars27

The following is my verbatim writing from a couple days ago that I originally intended to post here. I will not be editing it. It is what it is.

*************************

This will be rambling. I don't have a lot of time to write this, but I have thoughts pouring in.

dream

bug house

I move into a new room and it is full of bugs everywhere. I find myself having to continuously get up and lock the door because it keeps coming unlocked.

swatting

I am lying in bed trying to read something. There are two flies hovering near me that I am finding annoying. One is black and the other is white. I try swatting and the black one smudges on my hand. The white one remains.

white bug

I go outside and read an article on the sidewalk about the white bug. It says that it is actually a species that mimics whatever object it first encounters. And once it starts moving, it is unable to turn into anything else. In this case, it happened to see a fly and became a fly, but it could have been anything (e.g. a flower, a mushroom, etc.)

childhood imprinting, questions about viability of reflection as a strategy for psychological helping; if you become similar to something else. connects with something i was thinking about yesterday while walking with there being three sorts of general helping strategies:

1) Reflecting or validating other person's perspective (2nd person)
2) Expressing one's own feelings/thoughts/identity (1st person)
3) Sharing some external, perhaps objective sort of information (3rd person)

1st strategy maps to CCT, 3rd strategy maps to CBT, and 2nd strategy seems like a group thing that diminishes alienation. Am feeling repulsion at the idea of helping in general at the moment. Everything is just bugs whirling around being a nuisance and getting struck in return, whether it be the expressions or the responses to those expressions. Locking of door represents desire for safety and for psychological independence. Going outside represents opening oneself up to what other people are sharing.

bookshelf

There are a bunch of books on my bookshelf, all of them about Buddhism. I have some new ones that I want to fold in. First I want to arrange the old ones. I want to get everything organized.

new experiences, integrating with old experiences, being systematic. the fact of reading something that isn't mine is absorbing other people's information or experiences

monk story

Pick one book that is supposed to be about Buddhist logic. Front jacket has a different story though. About a monk who when he was young, his two brothers that he loved very much died. So his parents gave him a statue of two Buddhas in sexual intercourse, which he and they understood and treasured as representing his two brothers. When the young man went to a religious college, they didn't approve of the statue, both for its sexuality and because they had a dislike for graven images. So, the story is him trying to understand what his statue means from a few different angles:
1) how he perceives and understands the statue
2) the meaning of the statue with respect to a Buddhist context or its creator
3) the meaning of the statue and reactions to it from the vantage point of other people in the college

I'm seeing the same three-fold structure I noted above... first, second, third person. How interesting.

I have been thinking about how some of my own writing may be triggering other people in multiple ways. Was also thinking about something that I wrote while I was walking yesterday... the part of my large post where I was thinking about how the 3 self feels envious of the 4 self for being happy or possibly not having to deal with certain types of suffering.

This was a thought I had while I was walking... what will I do if somehow I manage to crawl out of a box and I start writing all kinds of really happy, positive stuff. How will other people feel? What is the end destination for that?

A thought I had while showering yesterday that possibly pertains to both questions (of interpersonal triggering and of "health" possibly being toxic) was I was imagining a men's rights activist forum. Or a sports forum. And thinking about the fact that there are so many different separate communities. And the people there are doing their thing. If I were to step into certain spaces, I wouldn't fit in, or perhaps my presence would not be welcome. But that is why there are so many spaces. So, perhaps if someday I turn into something that becomes really noxious or challenging for other people, or I begin to feel as though my presence is not a net benefit, I could exit and try to find a different space. And that would simply be connected to the fact that I was no longer a person that connected well with that space. Maybe there are certain types of help that can only be offered by a person who is really in the middle of suffering.

The thought I had while walking was that the 3-4 envy/loneliness was one of my greatest reasons for wanting to continue to suffer. The fact that I don't want other people to feel marginal or lonely in some of the ways that I have. And if by adopting a certain type of power or health, I begin to make others feel lonely or like they're being left behind, then I feel like I dislike that thought.

assassin bug

There is a large bug in my room that seems to have eaten most of the other bugs. I identify it as an assassin bug. I'm glad that there are fewer bugs, but still feel wary of going to sleep with this humongous bug just walking around on the walls.

This large bug feels like power, aggression, defensiveness. It eliminates its foes, yet it is still uncomfortable. There is gratitude but also a feeling of a mixed nature.

***

I'm fascinated by this dream. Perhaps it is suggesting a broad framework for trying to understand what's going on with my interpersonal experiences. Since currently they feel like a bit of a mess.

This feels like the type of dream where if I had 2-3 hours to sit down and do nothing but analyze it, lots of new meanings would pour in and I would potentially come up with a system/structure for completely understanding every facet of the interpersonal situation of helping, sharing, triggers, etc. It is a shame that I do not have the time. Perhaps I will just continue to have more dreams that highlight different things.

Most of my successful systems in the past have either come from dream analysis or been confirmed and extended through dream analysis. It is extremely common for me to have dreams with bugs in them when I am worried about something.

I apologize for the rambly nature. I apologize to others for putting what feels to me like substandard/disorganized stuff out into the world. And I apologize to myself for not being able to polish this. I wonder if I should hold off on sharing. Perhaps this type of dream or experience is something too precious or too close to the center. And I should hold onto it until I've had a chance to process it and spin/transform it into something that is usable.

But on the other hand, maybe I will show myself at an intermediate stage where I am confused and uncertain and trying to work through things, and that will help diffuse an image I think I've been creating in which I am some imperious overlord spitting out perfect text. Ugh, I hate all of it, haha.

1 reply
frigidstars27 OP October 25th, 2019

@frigidstars27

dialogue

***trigger warning - discussion of codependency, identity deformation, anger, nihilism, anxiety***

1: hello
2: hi
1: what would you like to talk about?
2: i'd like to share some associations i had while i was walking
2: or maybe just float around and see what comes up
1: in relation to the dream?
2: yeah, i don't want to feel tied down by what i wrote a few days ago
1: yeah, like you want to let things go where they go
2: yes
1: what would you like to discuss?
2: i don't know
1: how about we just walk through what you wrote down
1: and maybe that will jog something
2: sure
2: but only the original text
2: i don't really care about my analysis from a couple days ago
2: i know for a fact i have been turning this on its head
2: like my latest thoughts aren't entirely in sync
2: and it's natural since some time has passed
1: sure
1: the first thing you say in your dream is that you are in a room surrounded by bugs
2: so, something i was thinking about while i was walking... a few things

black bugs
white bugs
locked door
swatting
article outside

2: i'm not sure which to focus on
2: could you pick a random number between 1 and 5?
1: 3
2: okay, locked door
2: i had an interesting thought today about the bugs
2: which was that i actually imagined myself liking them
2: i was thinking about the significance of the locked door
2: one obvious thing is to keep people from outside from coming in and doing bad stuff
2: i was also thinking about the room as being an enclosure for my "self"
2: like, the room is literally me
2: what i felt myself leaning toward then was thinking of the bugs as my thoughts
2: the black ones in particular
1: which ones are black?
2: everything up until the point where i swat the black bug and there's a white bug next to it
2: the white bugs felt super problematic while i was walking today and thinking about them
2: um, pick another random number between 1 and 5 that isn't 3
1: 2
2: okay the white bugs
2: here's my take on them
2: the white bugs are other people
2: and the article outside...
2: you know what it said
2: it said that these are bugs that basically *identify* with something and have their identity become absorbed with that thing
2: it also said that they do this when they're very young
2: the image i had was that the white bugs are like infants, or these fragile, vulnerable things
2: you know what i was thinking during the dream when i swatted the black bug?
1: what?
2: that if i wasn't careful, i might have hit and hurt the white bug instead
2: you know why i didn't care about kil/ling the black bug?
2: because the black bug was part of my inner landscape
2: but the white bug *wasn't*
2: it was something that came from outside the house
2: the black bugs were already there
2: and this was something i was thinking about as i was walking
2: that i actually have a comfort with the black bugs
2: i was imagining the ceiling just lined with black ladybugs
2: and it being kind of like an ocean floor that's lined with coral and sponges and all the rest
2: it's organic life, but it sort of makes sense
2: it's like carpeting in a room
2: the black bugs feel like they're supposed to be there
2: the black bugs are my own thoughts
2: the interpretation i had of the locked door today was that it was actually something that was working in the opposite direction
2: i don't want to open the door and have all of the black bugs escape and be left with a completely empty room
1: ah
2: so the white bugs... the white bugs are other people
2: they are other people who are helpless
2: other people who idealize me
2: other people who cling onto me
2: i have black bugs and those are my thoughts or the things that i am
2: the white bugs see parts of me
2: and they idealize them
2: they become attached to them
2: when it's just me and the black bugs
2: i can be cruel and harsh with them
2: and it's all good
2: because they're just me
2: there are thousands of bugs
2: what's it matter if i ki/ll one or two of them
2: (i don't mean this in a real-life sense)
2: (i mean, just try to imagine in this dream situation)
1: sure
2: like in the dream, i just had a feeling of being annoyed with this black bug and wanting it to go away
1: so you swatted at it
2: yeah, but i noticed that the white bug was right next to it
2: and it's like... i couldn't tell the difference almost
2: it was like, if i was striking one of my own thoughts, there was a chance that i might accidentally crush and ki/ll this white bug instead
2: and i didn't want to ki/ll the white bug
2: because it wasn't mine
2: and that's what i'm saying about the thing with the article
2: where the white bugs are like these infant things... and they're other people
2: it's like... there are these helpless people who are attached to parts of me
2: and if i'm just doing my normal thing
2: sort of going around messing with all of my bugs
2: and doing what i normally do where i'm kil/ling some of them here and there
2: the white bugs that are attached to those parts... i'm hurting them too
2: and it gets in the way of my natural freedom
2: like i said, the house is me
2: why are there white bugs in there that aren't mine and aren't me?
2: why are there things that aren't me inside of myself?
2: but i can't get rid of them
2: because they're other people
2: and they're helpless, infantile, and it will hurt them a lot
2: you know?
1: you'll feel guilty if you accidentally hurt one of these white bugs (other people) if you're just doing your normal thing with your black bugs (yourself and your thoughts)
2: yes
2: it's like, the presence of other people, and the fact of letting other people become attached to me... it completely destroys my freedom to do stuff interiorly
2: because it's not just me existing in that self-system at that point
2: it's a whole bunch of other people
2: i had an imagination while i was walking too today
2: which was like.. what if it wasn't just one white bug, but it was *thousands* of them
2: what if the white bugs started like actually crawling onto me
2: what if it was like that scene in the matrix where there's this goo covering neo and it goes down his throat
2: like, what if the white bugs really become an absolute nightmare
2: at what point am i allowed to ki/ll them????
2: right??
2: is that making sense?
1: to make sure i'm understanding... you're feeling like there's a moral obligation to not ki/ll these white bugs
2: yes, because it's like the article said... they are these helpless, child-like, infantile things with feelings and they are latching onto me for well-being
1: yeah, so as a de facto thing, your ethical position would probably be, "i don't want to hurt these if i can avoid it"
1: but then the ethical problem becomes... what if the white bugs start becoming a huge problem and they are really inconveniencing you, or even completely covering your house and just absolutely smothering you... at what point are you allowed to take ownership over your space and say, "f*** all of you--please leave and if you don't i'm going to start doing housekeeping"
2: that's what i mean
[pause]
2: i'm not sure what else
1: maybe go back to the original writing?
2: sure
1: in your analysis, you talk about reflection and helping strategies
2: i don't really care about that right now
2: it was something i was thinking about yesterday
2: i was thinking that in all interpersonal relationships, there are basically three ways of interacting
2: the first is that you can try to mirror or relate to the other person's thoughts
2: the second is you can try to share your own thoughts
2: and the third is that you can try to express some third-party, objective thing that doesn't belong to either you or the other person
1: uh huh
1: you said in that post that you feel some repulsion toward helping
2: yes
1: is that because of what you've said about the white bugs?
1: that you feel repulsion toward the idea of people becoming dependent upon you?
2: [pause]
2: you're sort of pushing this in a direction that isn't what i was thinking about while i was walking
2: i want to stick to that
2: there are tons and tons of directions
2: but i want to stick to the ones that i felt while i was walking
2: because all of those felt good and like they made sense
2: and i really feel that this set of images is something that goes to the roots
2: while i was walking, i didn't even really start to try to engage with the story of the monk and the sexual buddhas
2: it almost felt to me like it was something more advanced where i would have to understand and make sense of the bugs first
2: otherwise, it was just getting too deep and too hard
2: the monk story is really important
2: that's the feeling that i have about it
2: but let's stick to the bugs
1: okay
2: something i'll say about the books though
2: the bookshelf bit
1: yeah?
2: the feeling i had while i was walking
2: was that the bookshelf was almost like a sacred shrine
2: like the books were magical objects
2: it wasn't just some dry detached information
2: no, it was like the way that i had the books arranged... it was special
2: the choice of which books to include
2: how to place them
2: everything about it felt almost like a ritual
2: it's like the sword "sting" in the lord of the rings that glows blue when there are goblins around
2: the books felt like they had a blue glow around them, like they were magical objects that had energy in them
2: i mean to say that they felt like sacred things
2: like they were of a different order or type than the bugs
2: and i also feel like in some version of my imagination
2: when i was at the part where i was swatting the bugs
2: i might have been reading one of the books
2: i'm having two associations right now with the books
1: oh, what sort?
2: one is that the books are connected with sexuality
2: so it's almost like a kind of immersive, non-dual experience
2: or like a trance state in which i'm liberated from thoughts
1: yeah
2: the other association
2: is that the the books are external ideas
2: that i've taken in and made my own
2: like, buddhism is an external idea
2: but it's now so closely connected with my identity
2: that i can't really extricate it
2: and that reminds me of something with the article i found on the sidewalk
1: yeah?
2: i feel like as i was walking
2: i was unaware of the white bugs being what they were
2: until i read the article
2: and i almost feel like....
2: me reading that article
2: is me learning about the existence of other people's feelings
2: learning about the fact of, "oh, other people have really deep vulnerabilities"
2: "other people have really powerful feelings"
2: "other people can be hurt very badly"
2: it's like another type of absorption of external information
2: in the form of realizing, "wow, other people have a lot of feelings"
2: "and i have to be careful when i'm swatting"
2: "or else i might really hurt other people"
2: and it's like... i wish i didn't have that information
2: it was easier not knowing that
2: it was easier not realizing how easily i can hurt other people
2: or how powerfully i can hurt other people
2: it was easier before i knew all of the infinite ways to hurt people
2: i liked myself better before i knew that i was a person who could seriously wound others
2: and i liked other people better before i knew that it was possible for them to depend on me in such a parasitic, soul-destroying way that i felt like i had no choice but to hurt them in order to maintain my sanity
2: i liked life better before i found myself in situations where i had to choose whether i wanted to hurt someone else or get hurt myself, and the two options were both hurting myself because it hurts to hurt other people too
1: [nod]
2: i feel like the book is from an earlier time
2: i don't have to be careful with the book
2: i just get lost in it forever
2: and there's no risk
2: i'm not going to hurt anyone or get hurt by getting dependent on it
2: it's perfect
1: what was the book again?
2: immersion
[pause]
1: what would you like to talk about?
2: the assassin bug
2: it's a bug that invades and eats/ki/lls everything
2: it eats black bugs and white bugs
2: no discrimination
2: it eats everything and is the only thing remaining
2: in my initial dream analysis, i said that i didn't feel comfortable going to sleep with the assassin bug around
2: because it's this sort of giant monster bug just hanging out on the wall
2: i'd go further and say that i don't like the assassin bug for having eaten all of the other bugs
2: if i'm in this new sort of mindset where i really like the black bugs
2: because the black bugs are my thoughts
2: and this room is like my sanctuary where i just have the walls covered, coated, carpeted in all of these bugs
2: and it's like this super lush jungle or ecosystem just thriving with life...
1: is the assassin bug an invader?
1: like, did it come from outside?
1: or was it inside to start with?
2: i don't think it was inside
2: there's no way i'd let something that dangerous live in my house
2: i think i let it in when i went outside to read that news article on the sidewalk
2: i went to go read this objective information, or to absorb things from the outside world
2: and voila, here's a big nasty bug that's going to wreck your s*** and eat absolutely everything
2: "one of these things is not like the other", hehe
1: is the assassin bug external judgments?
2: i'd say that more generally, it's anything that has the effect of completely stifling or mutilating inner self-connection
2: so yes, judgment seems like a good example
2: it freezes the environment
2: and creates a cold, vacant, empty space
2: where it's basically uninhabitable
1: yeah, because if you're a black bug and you come out to play in this room, there's the big nasty assassin bug sitting there on the wall, and you're going to become lunch
2: yeah, it sucks
2: and it ki/lls the white bugs too
2: so it's not just me and my thoughts
2: so it's kind of interesting to look at the ecosystem in terms of these three types of bugs (black, white, assassin)
2: the black bugs are the good ones
2: i'll say though that in some versions of this while i was walking, i was imagining two types of black bugs... the ones that are sort of coating the ceiling and help make the room feel cozy and livable
2: and then the ones that are sort of flying around being a pain in the butt, and i'm swatting them
2: so, it's not like the black bugs are perfect
2: it's not like my thoughts are pristine and i love all of them
2: but we make a good team
2: we have everything working out
2: generally, everyone gets along, and when they don't i just swat at them or crush a few of them, and then everybody sort of gets into line and it's pretty okay
2: the white bugs and assassin bugs are pests though
2: but they're different kinds of pests
2: the white bugs are a moral risk where they are these super-vulnerable things that you don't want to harm, and as a result all of your movements are completely paralyzed
2: the assassin bugs are these dangerous bugs that infiltrate and are more actively or transparently destructive because they're literally going around attacking and eating stuff
[pause]
1: where does helping fit into this?
2: i don't think it does
2: this is a really self-centered and kind of cruel view of things
2: helping feels to me like a white bug
2: parasitic
2: i took a shower after i went walking
2: and i was kind of just singing to myself
2: and the lyrics i came up with were about a blood-sucking louse
2: and like, yeah that's what a parasite is
2: but it's really hard to reconcile that image with... could you go back to the original dream text for me?
2: i can't remember
1: "it is actually a species that mimics whatever object it first encounters. And once it starts moving, it is unable to turn into anything else."
2: it's a larva
2: it's a baby
2: it's an infant
2: how can you be mad at an infant
2: or i guess you're not supposed to
2: you're not supposed to be angry at something that can be hurt very badly if you are angry
2: you're not supposed to hurt things that can be hurt badly if you hurt them
2: that's the opposite of compassion... hurting things
2: compassion is restraining yourself
2: compassion is letting your entire room get covered in thousands of white bugs and having white bugs crawling all over your skin sucking the life out of you
2: that's the way of the bodhisattva
2: that's the way of the christ bleeding on the cross
2: to be eaten alive by maggots
2: and to feel as though you aren't allowed to complain about it
2: or else you're evil or you're hurting someone
2: ... i can't
2: i want to ki/ll the maggots
2: but i can't
2: i want to let out a torrent of all kinds of horrible energy
2: i want to scare them away
1: why not?
2: because then i am evil
1: is it evil?
2: let's put it this way... if i have all of these feelings of anger, aggression, violence... and i express them... and that seriously wounds or triggers someone who reads it... who has experienced violence and been on the receiving end of it in other situations... aren't i responsible for that?
2: and i don't mean from a "rules" perspective
2: though even there, it would probably be out-of-bounds or prohibited for me to write some kind of graphic/violent horror fantasy
2: i'm almost certain it would violate the rules
2: and i feel like that's probably a good thing that there's a rule against doing that
2: but, it does mean that there are potentially lots of psychologically healthy expressions that can't exist in this space, because what's healthy for me might be completely unhealthy for someone else... and the rules are based on a reasonable, common-sense assessment that some things are helpful for the community as a whole and other things aren't.
1: yeah, for sure
1: likewise, just as it might be healthy to write graphic horror fiction, it might be healthy on some level for you to write semi-pornographic fantasies on the other end of the spectrum
2: and i realize that that's not a popular view probably
1: so, i mean, is that really a problem then though?
1: it means that there are some restrictions on your freedom in this space
1: but that's how it should be
1: that's what civilization is
1: civilization is a space in which people have desires for things, but they agree to curb their behaviors out of mutual respect
1: like, if i see your watch and i think, "ooh, that's a pretty watch, i'd like to steal it," ... that desire certainly exists and that feeling can be validated. it probably is a very nice watch! but, you can't act on that feeling.
1: and that's a very good thing. the fact that there are limits or constraints means that in an ideal setting, i can walk outside without worrying about getting robbed.
1: when people agree to protect one another in certain ways, it limits some freedom, but the net result is that *everybody* is safer
1: the thing that makes 7cups such a benevolent space is that the culture is one in which respect is something that is valued
1: it's that everyone has a sense of, "I'm a person who can be hurt by others," so then there's a corresponding compassion of, "other people can be hurt by me"
2: do you think maybe that's what leads to the kind of catch-22's that trauma sufferers experience with interpersonal relationships?
2: where it's like... if i'm a person who is able to get triggered in this type of way, and if i imagine that other people experience the world in a similar way... then how can i be sure that i'm not just completely annihilating people left and right wherever i go (if that's my own experience of things)?
2: and in a space like this where a lot of people really are sensitive (i don't mean oversensitive or hypersensitive; i mean in a neutral sense that these are just people who really feel things intensely, myself included, and can be hurt)... that kind of feeling of "maybe i'm hurting everyone" might be a realistic or pragmatic apprehension in some scenarios
2: granted there are certainly lots of situations in which i might imagine i'm hurting someone and that i've ruined their life and that it's the end of the world and they're going to hate me forever, but that isn't actually the case or i'm more worried about it than they are
2: but i could easily imagine there being lots of subtle conflicts where people trigger each other in small ways, but maybe out of respect for the other's freedom (or out of fear of conflict based on past negative experiences expressing when they've been triggered), they sort of mask or hide the fact that they've been hurt by something
2: or what i really imagine happening is... you know that if you tell someone that you've been triggered, the other person is incredibly sensitive/compassionate, so they're going to feel hurt and guilty that they've hurt someone... and it's almost like, you telling someone that they've hurt you might be hurting them very badly, possibly even worse than how they hurt you. and so it feels like raising that conflict is something a bit risky or harmful as well, if it were to happen... because that might send someone else into a downspiral where they feel like they're a bad person, they're someone who hurts others, what if everything i say is going to wound other people, oh gosh do i have a place in the world, etc.
1: yeah
2: but then on the other hand... wouldn't it be helpful if people were able to express their feelings of being hurt? it's just such a tricky thing.
1: these aren't easy questions
2: what do you see as the answer to this?
1: i think the answer is to wait until i have another dream
2: lol
1: i mean, really
1: i imagine it being sort of like the apocryphal stories of isaac newton with the apple or archimedes with displacement of water.
1: like, being so obsessed with a problem or question that everything you look at becomes food for that problem and you start dreaming about it too
1: just absolutely everything gets sucked in
1: to be so obsessed that an event as random as an apple falling might spark an insight
2: yeah
1: i'm sleepy
2: okay
1: don't worry too much about this stuff
1: you're not a bad person
1: even if you hurt people from time to time, that doesn't make you evil
1: it just makes you one of many people caught in a really complex situation that feels like it doesn't have any easy solutions
1: like, it makes total sense that if you put a bunch of vulnerable people into a room and press play on the simulation, they're going to accidentally hurt each other and themselves quite a lot.
1: and of course i include you in that group of vulnerable people
2: do you idealize power, or think of power as being something better than vulnerability?
1: if i said no, would you believe me? if i said yes, would it be helpful? if i refuse to answer, would you think i'm concealing a hurtful answer and assume the worst about me? if i critique the question by pointing all of this out, won't that lead to bad results too?
2: yeah, i feel those words slicing.
2: i do better when i have a sense of, "this thing is too hot to touch" and i just stay away from it based on an intuition of, "yeah, that thing's no good and you're not going to make any progress on it so don't even bother trying." don't look directly at the sun. :)
1: well, i suppose we can meditate if we've been working up an intellectual/emotional sweat
1: and then sleep
2: sounds good
2: thanks for discussing
1: no problem
1: take care
2: you too

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frigidstars27 OP October 26th, 2019

Posting guidelines I have the greatest risk of breaking:

"inflammatory, ... offensive... posts are not allowed"
"unsupportive content... is not allowed"
"always maintain a respectful tone"
"excessive inappropriate or graphic language is not allowed, including... cursing in excess within a post"
"making posts that are largely unreadable... is not allowed"

frigidstars27 OP October 26th, 2019

Oh wow... took a nap because I was tired, and ended up dreaming. Usually when I take naps in the middle of the day, when I wake up I have an incredible amount of energy. Was in a bleary sort of state so I was able to write and feel connected, nothing going on today to interrupt me. An hour and a half later...

Am still not quite myself. I feel like I've been sleepwalking, and now I'm trying to form words.

But my model that I came up with in writing the dream explains that too... :) Had a model for self-expression that feels almost complete. Had a model from the same images pertaining to interpersonal conflict. Had another model from the same images and some new images that I free associated that started to develop a model of all of the different dimensions of sexual arousal and sexual imagery. Was having fantasies that I wasn't able to describe because the dynamics were sort of like a 3-deep chess moves thing of "I do this, then you do this, which makes me feel this." Or "I do this because I'm expecting and anticipating and hoping that you do this in response, which makes me feel..." And I started coming up with a syntactical language for describing those types of interactions...

Will do the same thing with the other dream of making multiple posts. It's my thread so I can muck it up however I want.

My goodness, still so many images coming into my head. I have reactions to my writing as I'm writing it, and then those connect to dream images.

1 reply
frigidstars27 OP October 26th, 2019

@frigidstars27

I want to try describing. I will be bleary, but if you follow, the bleariness is okay and it makes sense and is doing things that are good. The bleariness can be explained.

dream descriptions

[I'm going to do this off the top of my head without looking at my notes]

there are three parts to the dream sequence

1) i'm in a car. i'm asleep/dreaming while i'm in the car. parents are in the front. i wake up. i am in a fog/haze. i have so much stuff floating around. but it's all unformed. i can't say it. i start trying to say it, but it's like i'm in a trance. my words come out elongated, my speech is slurred, the words are hazy. for me, it feels like the imagery. the haziness feels nice. it keeps me connected with the warm images. i can feel the heat of them as if i were sitting next to a fire. my words are so confusing from the outside, but from the inside i feel them kindling my connection. i am still reveling in the images. the vague words keep me there.

my dad hears me speaking these sort of poetic words that don't say anything, and he's frustrated. i guess that's understandable. but it's like, he doesn't have any idea what i'm doing. i'm not trying to explain things in a logical, rational, coherent way. i'm trying to speak in such a way that when i hear my own words, they keep me deep into the images. the whole purpose of my words is not to reach anybody else... it is to be something that keeps me connected to my own feelings, my own images.

2) i'm in my dad's office. that's not important really. i think there's been some kind of argument between my mom and dad. not sure what about. i'm in a chair at the desk and i'm drawing stuff. i have a feeling of wanting to solve the conflict through this.

at some point, i reach an insight and i feel like i can stop drawing and show off my drawing, and i can explain it. my dad is off nowhere to be found, not an issue. my mom is in the office and she's listening to me explain the image and its meanings.

some of these meanings came after i woke up from the dream, but lots of things going on with the image.

the image itself as it was imagined in the dream initially was a sort of red center and there are these two planes or flies... small points... that are approaching the center. they both want to reach it. but there's a competitiveness or zero-sum nature to it. one person can reach it and the other can't.

there are two sorts of pathways. one where they both go toward the center at the same time and have a massive confrontation between the two of them because of their directness... and another where they veer around and sort of try to be more tricky, finessing, conniving about it... and i'm seeing sort of the trails from where they've been as dotted lines, as if they were planes leaving trails in the sky... except dotted lines on my paper.

so there's the first pathway where they're just coming from opposite directions toward the center and have a huge battle. and then there's the other where they both squiggly around like crazy and go somewhere that has nothing to do with the center. but in reality, it's like, one of them is trying to catch the other being too far away from the center, and it's all of this mindgame stuff.

the other aspect of the image that i experienced within the dream and was trying to explain that gave me the sort of "eureka" within the dream of feeling like i had something i wanted to share with my mom to help with the conflict...

the image also had this color on it where the two planes were fighting each other. the imagery was fire. and it was red. it's that i attack you by throwing fire at you. and you attack me by throwing fire at me. so the whole image was just covered in red fire.

after the dream, i analyzed that there were like...two ways in which focusing on the fire could be hazardous, in the sense of increasing anger:

1) i focus on the fact that i am burning, and i feel angry at that. you have thrown fire at me.
2) i focus on you and the things that motivate me to want to throw fire at you. i see your ugliness. i see the things that make me want to burn you. and it makes me want to continue.

so, i can focus on the fact that i am on fire, and feel more angry. or i can focus on the fact that the other person is someone worth setting on fire, and i feel angry. in both cases, i want to create more fire.

the thing that was sort of the resolution in the dream, or the thing i was feeling drawn to (it doesn't feel remarkable now but it did in the dream) was the idea of there being another sort of element or color. there was water and it was blue. and it was very small. but it was this aspect of wanting to put out the fires.

i see a person on fire, and i want to put out the fire. i don't want to see people suffering by being on fire. so, there's a small part of the image where there's this bucket of light blue water, and the light blue is pouring out of the bucket and trying to put out the fire.

the thing that i told my mom was that the way to resolve conflicts is to:

1) avoid looking at the red/fire, because doing so only exacerbates/increases it--as described above with the two ways in which looking at fire increases the desire to create fire
2) look at the blue/calm/water aspect of the image

i didn't do any analysis of the blue (at least not this blue... there are other blues... this image gets way crazier)

but if i were to try, i'd say that there are multiple ways in which it's helpful

1) the fact that it isn't fire, so it's not something poisonous to look at
2) the natural calming or soothing or pleasant aspects of the blue. it's something where when you look at it, you feel like you're sort of sinking into it. of course i'm talking in metaphor where the blue is just sort of a calm feeling, so yeah, if you look at a calm feeling and focus on it, it gets calmer. [it occurs to me that this analysis doesn't really seem to cover situations of anxiety or fear... but rome wasn't conquered in one day, lol.]
3) ...

wow, just that one small chuckle completely broke my attention span. now the images are gone and i can't find them.

like the physical feeling of my stomach moving a certain way just completely adjusted the energy balance in my body, and now all of the feeling of heat that was at the top of my head, this sort of static situation where there was just a pouring out of images and associations, it's not as easily found.

ah, but now i'm writing, and that's sort of creating a new stream or spout of imagery and connection. but, it's not going to be the same one or go the same way as where i might have gone before.

***

so i guess there was this image stuff with the fire and water. and also with the planes going in two possible approaches. and the thing i expressed to my mom of "focus on the water". which i understand to mean, focus on the aspect of the experience in which there is suffering, a feeling of compassion for the suffering, a desire to heal that suffering, and a desire for peace or the pleasant feeling of being someone who is healing or tending to suffering.

as far as anxiety situations, i kind of do feel like thinking about that. it won't be dream stuff, but this post is so garbled

i have three different directions i want to go in right now writing:
1) dream where i left off
2) other color stuff in the dream and other images and other interpretations of symbolism
3) talking about this new topic of anxiety stuff and having imaginations there and seeing if i can come up with any solution
4) desire to edit what i've already written, but knowing that if i do i'll probably lose where i currently am

i wrote those from least to most interesting, writing 1 first, 2 second, 4 third, and 3 fourth. i was going to say 3 is my choice, but now it's changed and i need to read the list again.

the dream had a third part. the third part was me going into the bedroom. first scene was car. second scene was office. third scene is bedroom.

and there i'm having a conversation with my mom. and there is a bunch of stuff i haven't analyzed.

and i'm not sure i remember.

or maybe it wasn't interesting enough.

it was something to do with burgers. and with interpersonal conflict resolution. oh, there were things going on in the conversation where... but i can't remember them. i'll have to look at my notes.

is it okay for me to quote my own immediate writing verbatim?

there was a burger thing in the third part of the dream. and somehow it feels like that's connected to conflict. there was a conflict about a burger. what was it?

[reading notes] there was a question about when it's worthwhile to approach or bring up conflicts. don't remember whether it was me asking my mom or she asking me. something i was thinking about in the dream was the fact that my parents were in a committed relationship. the fact that if they're married, and if they intend to live together or be connected to one another, then they kind of have no choice but to come into conflict. i think it was me asking my mom about conflict and when it's worthwhile to discuss. and her response in that context was one of the following two, can't remember:

1) when it feels like the conflict isn't going to go away and it's something bothersome. like, if you're going to feel the same way 3 days later, then it's not something that you can drop
2) when the pain of the situation you're currently experiencing and being patient with is worse than the total suffering you'd experience by discussing or trying to address the conflict directly. this is where i think the time thing of point #1 comes into play. like if you imagine a curve and you're doing integration and taking the area under it, it's a function of how tall the curve is, but also how long the curve lasts for. if you have a big x, then you'll get a big area. and if you have a big y, you'll also get a big area. i could imagine there being like, low curves that last for a very long time. and then very steep curves that last a short time.

so let's imagine that discussion or direct conflict resolution is something that might have the potential to make the curve go to zero faster. like, maybe if you're just patient with it, the curve will eventually zero out, but it might decrease a lot slower naturally. so, conflict resolution or discussion is something that takes the natural curve of the suffering of the current situation, and it potentially reduces it. [though that would depend heavily on the effectiveness of the conflict resolution discussion...]

then you can imagine that in addition to this first curve, which might be one color, that is graphing your suffering/response to the immediate situation... you have a second curve added to the picture in a different color that is graphing the suffering of the actual discussion of the conflict, if it were to take place.

and so the way that you can ascertain which decision is better (talking or not talking) is by comparing the area under the following sets of curves:

1) not discussing = original/natural curve of the suffering of the situation
2) discussing = altered curve of the suffering of the situation + 2nd curve of the suffering of the discussion

of course, you might have some discussions where it even goes very well and the discussion curve creates happiness rather than suffering, and it's like it even cancels out the other experience above and beyond merely reducing mitigating it.

[everything i'm writing now about curves and mathematical stuff is a completely new set of images that never happened in the dream. this entire model didn't exist until i started writing it down.]

...

what else then... ah right, the burger. the conflict was about a burger. :) there was a burger, and i guess my dad thought it was a real burger, but my mom replaced it with a portabella mushroom, or a mushroom-based burger, or something. and my dad was upset about it. or maybe he wasn't? of the top of my head, i feel like maybe that was another question i was either thinking about in the dream, or that i had asked my mom about, like, whether he was angry or whether it made sense to be angry about something like that. whether it was my own thought or my mom's thought, i remember the response being something along the lines of, "it depends on whether you see it as an accidental action or as an act of betrayal/malice/lying/deceit/deception".

i just looked at my notes to see what i wrote down, and i saw something else written there that i had forgotten about, but my instinct right now is that i would do best not to think about it. like there are some images or elements in dreams that might exist, but it feels almost like i'm too low-leveled. like if this were a game, i'm level 5, and that forest is level 15 and the stuff in there is going to one-shot me. so, it's like, i have plenty of stuff in my little level 5 area that i can play with and use to level up. no need and no purpose in going to the level 15 forest to die prematurely when i could get so much more benefit out of just staying where i am.

AH--okay, this is where by this point, i had woken up and had basically described everything that actually happened in the dream. at this point from what i've discussed so far, these are the models i have as i understand it:

1) model of self-expression... i haven't articulated this yet, but the three parts of the dream as a whole represent the three phases of self-expression

in the first phase, i'm completely introverted and absorbed in my dream images while i'm asleep in the car. and my priority is just to stay concentrated on my own experience and do whatever it takes to maintain that connection and just connect with the original source material.

in the second phase, i am in the office and i am drawing on the piece of paper. and there's a little bit more activity happening. it's not quite so passive. to analogize, it's like when i wake up from a dream, my first priority is to just be pretty passive and not get in the way of what's happening. not spook off the ghost fairies that are giving me all of these images and having everything pour into me. don't get in the way. but when i have some images and have built up a supply and feel like i'm able to start moving without getting in the way of something, then i can start writing creatively and engaging with it. but in this drawing phase... notice that i'm still drawing. i'm not talking yet, or if i do talk, it's still a little bit confused or metaphorical.

this is where the model feels like it doesn't quite split neatly into sections. because i was going to say the third part is me discussing with my mom.

okay, now i remember. the first two parts of the dream are basically self-directed. and then the third part is outwardly directed. in the first part i'm introverted and passive both externally and interiorly. in the second part, i'm still passive externally but i'm beginning to engage internally. in the third part, i'm expressing outwardly.

but that's what doesn't make sense... there's a feeling of difference between the engagement in the second part in the office where i'm telling my mom about the picture, versus in the third part where i'm talking to my mom about the burger. the model doesn't quite work...

but i want to look at my notes... i'm pretty sure i solved this already.

[skimming through notes] this is all of the *other* color stuff that i haven't even begun to talk about...

[done checking] based on my writing... the third state is distinct from the other two in that it involves this outward realm where your main concern is how you reach other people, how you come across to other people, and trying to sort of put everything together in a polished, coherent, neat-looking way and have this slick sort of marketing/advertising package where all of your words flow in a really pleasing way. it's all about pleasing the consumer or persuading them to buy your product in a way.

whereas in the second state, the person who's sitting in the office, like imagine me as a child drawing on a piece of paper with crayon. i'm not super coherent or articulate. i'm a little bit less stoned or zonked out of my mind than when i'm in the car and i'm jumbling together words in a way that feels nice. but, i'm still not really talking very clearly, and i'm still kind of focusing on this image. i'm saying and doing stuff, but it's all still directed at me trying to understand it and piece everything together. it's all in the service of me processing. it's not as though my goal is to actually communicate to another person in the clearest way. it's all basically self-directed.

sort of like as i'm writing here in this post, this is the second type of activity. it's not me doing absolute word salad or stuff that makes absolutely no sense to anyone. but at the same time, i'm not really putting forth a lot of effort to edit or clean this up or make it very readable or nice to look at. :) it's still mostly for my own sake and me trying to work through thoughts and whatever.

but on the other hand, it's not something like this [literal quote from my writing...]:

2p [d24 lic -> 1p[2a] -> 1p[2a+] -> 2p[4d pla lic cut spl sng]]

so... three types of self-expression

1) hazy dream [car]
2) child-like drawing [office]
3) communication/discussion [bedroom]

if i do the first type of writing here, it is indistinguishable from schizophrenia

someday, i'll make all of this actually readable and create a very technical-looking model.

i just feel like i don't want to do that right away. i want you to see the jumbled mess that is the intermediate phase before the lollipop sort of crystallizes and hardens into a solid form. i want you to see that i'm not just a machine churning out really exact, precise, algorithmic things that come from nowhere. i'm more like silly putty. or i'm like a painter just spewing colors at a wall. and then what happens is that afterwards, a team of analysts comes to the scene of the crime and does a bunch of measurements and tries to make sense of the colors... and then they write a research paper about it. i don't want to show you just the research paper and have you think this is some kind of detached, soulless thing where i'm just pumping out dissertations and college essays by rote with no personal connections. the models i create mean a hell of a lot to me and they really are things i have to work hard to create. not only in terms of the organization, analysis, manipulation, and management of the last phase where i'm creating a finished product. but in terms of this whole phase that i'm now doing where i'm having to connect with images, find a way of staying connected with them and avoid getting in their way, and do all of this sort of heaven-earth mediation/coordination. the images are coming, and i can't get in their way, but then i also want to engage with them so that i can eventually wield them or use them. it's a delicate balancing act.

i've never had a model before for self-expression, but now i basically have it...

[*that's not quite correct... i have models of artistic creation that i haven't shared yet that sort of look at different aspects or elements of what i'm hoping for when i create music... like ways of grading the quality of what i'm doing. i wonder whether there's any connection between those models and this one... like what would happen if i put them side-by-side.]

and as mentioned, nestled in there are a bunch of ideas on conflicts/discussions. both in terms of the imagery from the drawing and the whole fire/water thing, and the communication styles of the planes either moving toward one another or in tangles. and then from the bedroom scene where there's the discussion of possible interpersonal conflicts and some of the strategies for when it's worthwhile to discuss or not discuss. and the whole area-under-the-curve image.

***

there were some associations that came to me after the dream. and these i found to have connections with all of the dream stuff i've already described. but then i also found them connecting to a model of sexual arousal types.

***

something i found myself asking was... what the heck is the "red" thing in the drawing that the two planes were flying toward? because i knew that they were both flying toward the center, but what the heck was in the center that was so valuable that they were willing to fight over it???

in my first versions of this image, i saw it as a red square jewel. like a really deep red, blood-like, but bright without being hazy. and in a perfectly cut square. next, i saw it turn into the light red of a heart with its softness. then i saw that softness of flesh be reinterpreted or turn into the sensuality of a procreative organ.

in all three cases it is immersion.

i also had an image of blue circle at the lower part of the drawing. in one version, it is soft and it is almost like the light-blue pale color of a piece of candy. but then it turns into a dark blue, cobalt, icy crystal. it is completely frozen.

i later interpreted the red pole in the center and the blue pole at the bottom as being two types of immersion.

1) red immersion = through connection, increase of sensation, intensity
2) blue immersion = through withdrawal, reduction of sensation, peace

later as i was engaging with the sexuality of the red image i imagined earlier, i had several other new images.

the first was a different color of like a verdant green forest, impossibly bright green. and this i interpreted as a sort of playful, colorful, bright, shining, happy, energetic sort of feeling. in my self-states, it would be 4.

the second image was as i was trying to manipulate or maintain ease in my feelings as i was connecting with these images, i started imagining purple, very faint and light purple, like the slightest shade... these points stationed at intermediate spots between the blue and the red. and those were focal points where if i held my attention there, i felt like i had a balance between the two aspects. i felt the calmness and peace and centeredness and safety of blue. but i also felt the energy, dynamism, creativity, attractiveness, and almost delicious/delectable ecstasy of red.

and there were many different purple points that accumulated over time. where some were closer to the blue side and some were closer to the red side. (i mean spatially in the image, where red is in the center and blue is a sort of bedrock or sheet of dark/cobalt ice at the bottom) some of the purple points actually went above the red dot in the image sometimes when i concentrated on them.

and it's funny if you think about the earlier thing in the dream with the planes flying around... because it works for that too. the approach where both planes fly toward the center is more intense, direct, and conflictual. while the one where they fly around and aren't directly approaching the center is a bit less intense.

[reading through notes to see if there's anything else i haven't mentioned yet in there that *isn't* sexual... because like 2/3 of my writing was sexual stuff]

i described the red in the center as being an intensely dark crimson almost like a gunshot wound. and then the dark blue at the bottom as being like an ice cold frozen disengagement, like a meditator who has given up on the world and completely turned it off. i guess you could see those as the alternative or less positive ways of interpreting or viewing both poles.

haha... so out of nowhere, i've now come up with a sort of four-quadrant model where on one axis you have engagement vs. disengagement ... and on the other axis you have positive descriptions vs. negative descriptions.

in my notes, i also compared the purple dots to an image in a scene in "the matrix reloaded" where neo and trinity are making out, and you can see that they both have all of these large black indentations/dots along their spines (from where they were originally plugged into the matrix).

i compared the purple dots to two types of images relating to manipulating one's degree of intensity, sensitivity, or connection. one is musical improvisation. the other is sexual edging. like you're trying to maintain a finely tuned amount of control and keep things at a certain level of intensity where it's a sweet spot at which you feel immersed in something interesting, but you are not overwhelmed or overstimulated. in a meditative context, it would be the sweet spot between excitation and dullness.

[reading notes] it looks like i have another model of the overall dream that splits it into five parts describing modes of self-expression:
1) asleep in dream [car] - completely absorbed in images
2) waking up from dream, incoherent, blurry [car] - able to talk but don't really want to and words aren't effective
3) drawing or free associated while still connected to images [office] - introverted creativity
4) trying to write or talk after having done the drawing [office] - provisional/preliminary outward self-expression where goal is still mostly self-exploration and connecting/deepening in images
5) talking with parent [bedroom] - have a complete, pre-existing picture or something that is well-formed enough that you can be more active with it without feeling as though you are cutting off the flow of an incoming stream of information; sort of organizing and polishing that into a more presentible, external-facing construction or what looks like a finished product

something else i wrote in my notes from the three-part model of expression: there's the felt sense, the image, and the expression. there's the initial connection with something, the inner development of it, and the outward sharing of it.

***

i think i've successfully touched upon all of the non-sexual elements of this dream and of my subsequent associations.

i would say that in terms of my three or five categories of self-expression, this writing i'm doing now falls into one of the intermediate ones where i'm not talking gibberish... but at the same time, i'm not prioritizing making sense or making all of this writing really easy to read. that would be a later stage.

[if anyone would like me to organize all of this into something that is actually readable and concise, let me know.]

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frigidstars27 OP October 27th, 2019

Since I'm not going to remember later, I want to document the thing I alluded to in my post above where it was in my dream notes but I didn't want to discuss it right now (because it felt like I was a Level 5 character in a zone with Level 15 monsters). To paraphrase:

"It's striking that in this dream situation, there is one character [mom] who is very understanding of the process:
1) She is able to appreciate the value of the irrational, imaginative side of things in the dream/drawing phases
2) She isn't turned off by the complexity or verbosity

However, the other character [dad] is completely dismissive of the poetic images in the car, uninterested in the drawing and elaboration in the second phase, and completely absent in the third phase where all of the thoughts have crystallized and are ready to be expressed."

The uncomfortable and probably too-difficult-right-now thought is to view the process that went well in this dream as being only one of three possible results based on surrounding circumstances:

1) Supportive figure [mom] present [what happened in dream]
2) Unsupportive figure [dad] present
3) No figure present (whether out of others' lack of interest or due to self-imposed isolation, whether voluntary or unconscious, to avoid situation #2)

In situation #1, there are supportive people listening or a feeling that you can create something and there is a worthy vessel to pour it into... some of the positive results that happened in the dream are possible. But this is a best-case scenario and not always possible.

The difficult question would be to ask what types of results or causal evolutions tend to occur in the other two scenarios. An even more advanced/difficult question would be to ask what the best way is to handle those scenarios.

***

I wrote some stuff but lost it all due to a 7Cups crisis warning. So, this is me trying to remember what I wrote.

Something I was thinking about was the thing I mentioned above with levels. Like, me being Level 5 now, and maybe if I just level up enough, certain topics will be approachable and I'll feel like I can find solutions for them. But then I wonder if there might be certain types of experiences or hazards that are just so relentlessly torturous that no matter how much I level up, I will just always get one-shot by them. Almost like it's hard-coded into the game of, "This is just something that does you in no matter how much you level up. Your only options are to run or hide."

And this got me thinking about certain types of horror video games where the inability to fight back is one of the primary elements that makes the game so effective, scary, good at what it's trying to do. Games like Amnesia, Outlast, and Alien: Isolation.

And there are levels to it. In Outlast, you can outrun stuff. In Amnesia, the monsters have faster movement speed than you, so it's basically a situation of "If it sees you, you're done--game over." Amnesia also has a system where you can't be in darkness for too long or else you start losing health, so you have to either hope to come across environmental light or create light sources that make it more likely a monster will detect you. Alien: Isolation has the monster wandering around in such a way that you can't hide in a single spot for very long without eventually getting caught. So, you have games not only taking away the "fight" option, but sometimes also taking away the "run" and "hide" options.

The basic thing with horror games that compounds all of this is that... if you're playing the game, your goal is to progress through it. So, if you are hiding somewhere, you know there's still a feeling of, "I can't hide here forever. I have to go out there at some point and face that thing I don't want to." (Of course, this is only a fearful thing if the game actually induces a feeling of powerlessness or helplessness. If it's a game where you can just wander around and your weapons/defenses are effective on everything, then it's a bit more relaxing.)