Charlie's notebook
This thread replaces my feed, which I hardly ever used. No restrictions on commenting.
In future, readers might not remember what a feed was. It was like a Tumblr blog but within 7 Cups. You could post stuff and your followers would automatically see it, and you could repost stuff that other people had posted, adding your own comment. We were told it was only used by a few people, it had bugs, and it was expensive to run, and then a few months later, with hardly any warning, it disappeared.
On reflection, I realise this notebook is more private than the feed was. Everyone who looked at my profile saw my feed whether they wanted to or not. This notebook will mostly be seen by people who subscribe to it or who deliberately choose to read it. So I'm thinking I might post here more often than I did in my feed.
Anyone at all is welcome to read, to subscribe and to comment. Tagging everyone who was following my feed when its closure was announced:
@2JoDuTyJo1 @AbsurdBook399 @affableHouse4580 @AffyAvo @AiluraBlaze @AllAboutEmotions @alostsoul1 @Amadeo @AmalieAnne @ambitiousNest5807 @Amie7 @AmityLagniappe @Annie @Anomalia @Anonymous100o1 @ApatheticApple @ArtGirl513 @Ashu303 @AtheneNoctua93 @Avaray @Ayla @BananaskinsXx @beccacats @BipolaryetAlive @biskygirl @blossombreathe @blueoblivion96 @bouncySeal96 @BrightRedFlower2322 @BrooklynM @Butwhosavesyou @Cadence @calmSoul60 @CaloenasNicobarica @CaptEmerald @CaringBrit @Cathlisa @Cathy111 @CeeDee32 @Celaeno @CharlieHasArrivedd @Charliepeachey @Chillymine03 @cloudySummer @comealongpond1988 @Compassionatelistener108 @confidentMoment82 @conscientiousDay8459 @Crinklefreak1990 @Dancelover2002 @dancingStrawberry34 @Dandelion358 @Darkpelt11 @dbubblepuff @deadcrybaby @DeathNDecay @decisiveHouse5960 @delightfulDragon87 @DesireeDescalza @Dibly @Dishamotwani @dogswinenetflix @DysphoricMe @Eduardo1901 @ehChihuahua @eleesy @elfdog @Emily619 @emotionalDrum6717 @emotionalTown1440 @EmperorRusty @emsworld @Equanamous13 @Eunoia @exquisiteDreamer32 @fearthevindd @Fei @FinleyTews @FlowerInDisguise19 @Flycat01 @ForeverInvisible @FrlsTonks @funnyPlace4222 @Gcat3000 @GentleLily20 @GlassStar @Glue @Hakunamananna @HappyCycologist @helpfulDog3487 @HeyItsRoo @Hiris @honestCurrent1031 @Hope2502 @HumanEars @impartialPineapple9240 @incognitoknight0101 @IndecisiveClementine186 @intelligentWheel627 @intuitivePrune6869 @inventiveTortoise3477 @itsahellofadayatseasir @Iza1 @izzie3000 @Jakeeee @JakobLopez @jennysunrise8 @Juniter @Justbeyourself3 @Kahilum08 @Keewee0701 @kikachu @kindDay4067 @KrinkTheMellowUnicorn @Laura @lauren1999xx @lavenderMelon6325 @Lilania @Lilylistens @lonelyandsickFede @LovingSparkle @loyalPark3943 @Lucilleball @Lucy @Lyra @Lyraaa6 @Lyth @Maenadia @MagAlves @ManandaPanda @Maryjean @melonMeloncholy @MidniteAngel @MistyMagic @Mittymouse @Mtude @myth276 @N221B @Nobody4367 @Nononoyesyesyes @Nottikas @ocdMedstudent9 @OceanRest orangeBalloon2097 @otapato @PandaK @peacefulSoul8 @peacefulWords45 @PedroMAlves1992 @progdreams76 @quietCloud22 @quietKite1932 @RaCat @radiantstele @Rainbow15 @Raspberrycheesecake @rationalTangerine5279 @Reboot85 @ReclusiveDoge @RedMeeko @roseMelody95 @sadalpaca @scarletPlum6501 @Scourge @ShaneKyleForever2017 @shawwesley @shiningLove72 @ShubhendraPandey @Siba @SomebodyyouKnow @SongsOfNerd @SouthAfrica2019 @StacyT @StormySmiles17 @Strawberrycake23 @SufferingAsh @sunDog64 @SunshineCat @sunshineDew66 @SunshineOnYourShoulder @SupportiveTruth43 @ThankYouForLettingMeTryingToHelp @themainjane @TLC2U @turquoiseHuman4131 @UncleIroh21 @Uncomfortablegeek @undefinednikki @underthemoonlightdust @Ushatar @VeeStarr @viciimperium @VickyP @Wanderwoman14 @warmheartedPrune8612 @WaterfallLily @WhimsicalDancer @Wittie96 @wizeakre @wontsleepwontwake @yaindrila55 @YyuunKaiight
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie - Excited to follow your thoughts.
As it's a cold, wet Saturday here in England I passed the time by asking my computer to make a searchable list of all the member and listener badges. There are 609 of them at the time of writing, although some have never been awarded to anyone and some are no longer awarded.
The list is here: Find a badge
It's a snapshot that will have to be updated from time to time. Let me know in this thread if you find it is out of date, other than simply the numbers awarded.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie I love all the info you put together about this site. Finding the badges via reputation is difficult, especially as the categories are not used consistently.
@RarelyCharlie
Is there any limit to the levels you can attain as a member or a listener? Seem infinite...like the steps of a pyramid.
@quietCloud22
There are limits for these levels. Here is a link about it https://www.7cups.com/about/memberReputation.php
@quietCloud22 A pyramid has a top 
If you continue in the same direction you will be going down again!
The listener levels go up to Epitome 19 and then there are no more, no matter how many cheers the listener has. For example at the time of writing this there's a listener who has 1.4 million cheers who is stuck on Epitome 19, which they reached at just over 780,000 cheers.
I suppose the member levels probably work the same way. Maybe some members are stuck at the top on Meaningful Journey 13.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie and @LovingSparkle
Maybe the highest achievers go on to work their way up the 9 ranks of angels 
In another thread, @SirJambabwe asked:
In which world does less freedom mean anything good for the majority of people ? Next they'll be telling you what colors of socks you're allowed to wear and which colors are a nono..
The question seemed to me to be off-topic in that thread, but @humorousDay8793 seemed to suggest it is of wider interest, so I'll say some more here.
Where I live, in the United Kingdom, I can be arrested and sent to prison if I say the wrong thing in this forum. Our lawmakers have decided that saying what I might want to say is not a freedom I have. Next they'll be telling me what colours of socks I'm allowed to wear. It could seriously happen here. Our lawmakers in the UK genuinely believe that less freedom can mean good for the majority.
Questions of individual freedom are not agreed, worldwide. In the real world as it is, there are places where people are more free and places where people are less free. At 7 Cups we operate worldwide. I don't believe it's realistic to try and make decisions at 7 Cups about what freedoms people should have around the world. Opinions around the world genuinely differ.
Personally, I believe in personal freedom. I don't often wear socks (and I'm not wearing socks now) but when I do I'd like to be able to choose the colour myself. I'd like everyone who wears socks to be able to choose the colours themselves.
Similarly, I don't operate any chatrooms (although I have run forums in the past). I'd like everyone who does operate chatrooms to be able to choose for themselves how they operate them.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie
Im very sorry you are not free. Freedom is a God given right. Countries that hold their people in bondage to take advantage is very shameful to human rights. Usually those countries also control what can be taught in schools or learned. Im not against you at all.
Thank you for explaining your personal limitations to us all. I respect you standing within your laws cobfinements, but i do believe it is not fair. Freedom to think for ourselves scares the powerful people that inspire to control us for their petsonal gain. I dont want the same things happening on 7cups. Sometimes saying nothing if in your situation is more helpful to those fighting for your freedoms. Your best intetest and the best intetests of all members is of most importance on 7cups.
Fairness and freedoms ate not free, we must fight for them!
@RarelyCharlie
You don't wear socks??!!! 
@quietCloud22 Not often, even though I am free to 
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie There are a bunch of really funny memes about wearing/not wearing socks, but I'd probably derail the mostly somber tone of this thread by posting one. *Laughing thinking about them*
@RarelyCharlie
oh well thats the problem charlie you need to wear these socks
☺
@jennysunrise8
oh and these too...
@jennysunrise8 Oh no! What have I started? 
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie
😏 lol just noticed the package on the black socks says UK large .... fitting eh mate 👍
@jennysunrise8
@RarelyCharlie could just get his ankles tattooed to LOOK like socks, if he needs too.
@quietCloud22
@RarelyCharlie tattoo imitating socks or real socks?
@LovingSparkle
There are real socks that do look like tattoos - depends how radical @RarelyCharlie wants to be. 
and now it appears that "feet" are now replacing "feed". 
@RarelyCharlie
progression into communism could seriously happen anywhere and i think will happen anywhere unless people prevent it from happening just like corruption inevitably happens in secrecy where there is no accountabily and the reason why accountability is so important so is checks and balances important and its no mystery what will happen when certain things are not in place if people just look back at history but maybe due to arrogance or ignorance some dismiss any lessons history might have it seems to be a reoccuring problem those who forget the past ... and some would argue that 7cups is only a business and its no more an issue than one person just making a decision as fair or unfair as that is just deal with it everyone and accept it the problem is that people see it for what it actually is a community of people a society and all one has to do is look back to see what people think about communism dictatorships and such 😁
@jennysunrise8 Yes, here in the UK we are a few weeks away from a general election and one of the big issues is how much the government should be able to control. There is no actual communist party of any significance here, but the idea of far-reaching government control is attractive to many people.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie
not really communism but socialism (politically correct communism as some call it) im just waiting for everyone to get tired of it and realize people in control are too far removed to be able to know whats best and a libertarian movement to form and gain ground it seems to be inevitable if only there was a remote we could just press fast forward through all the stupidity 😑
It is well known that 7 Cups treats suicide as someone else's problem, and listeners must always refer to specialist suicide prevention services. So discussing suicide prevention in the general forums seems pointless.
I keep coming across things like this, though, from data in the US 2019 National Veteran Suicide Prevention Annual Report:
(VHA: Veterans Health Administration care)
A recent analysis of this escalating problem:
...gets to the mathematical heart of why the VA suicide prevention efforts have failed. The effort is based on the premise that screening will get patients into treatment that will lower their suicide risk, thus lowering the overall suicide rates. But the subgroup data shows that treatment is elevating the risk of suicide, which leads to this tragic equation: screening + drug treatment = increase in veteran suicides.
The same tragic logic also applies to suicides in the general population.
7 Cups has adopted the same premise as the VA. Listeners and our automated chat censor screen members in order to get those members who mention suicide into treatment. But the treatment has been shown to increase suicide rates. This surely can't go on.
See: Screening + Drug Treatment = Increase in Veteran Suicides
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie
Thinking more about how 7cups can better serve those in crisis and also reinforce the efforts which support our mission, which as you've identified and seem to be what Glen is saying, are mainly the one-on-ones. How do we improve the quality of our one-on-ones?
Create a "front desk" staffed with real experienced people, not a bot, that filter trolls out, and can immediately and compassionately direct visitors to emergency resources, or the listeners (either in the General Request queue or our listener "stable"). Just putting listeners regardless of their experience on the front line and expecting them to handle all kinds of requests is irresponsible and counterproductive. Having a bot or a pop-up message in place as a possibly suicidal person's first contact with 7cups should be unthinkable.
Having a human filter up front would efficiently cut down on the time wasted in chats, chatrooms, and forums with people who demonstrate malicious intent. Perhaps trolls can be rehabilitated? This may be an important matter for future discussion.
If the one-on-ones are really our baseline strategy, then let's go for it and do it right. What do you think?
Hope you enjoy the rest of your weekend - none of my posts need to be immediately replied to, just hoping that they are palatable food for thought whenever you get around to it. Sending relaxing, seaside, sunny thoughts your way!
See, no socks! 
@quietCloud22 Ah yes, If the one-on-ones are really our baseline strategy... But who knows what our strategy really is? Do we actually have a strategy?
It seems to me that at the heart of many, if not all, of 7 Cups' difficulties is that either there isn't a strategy or the strategy isn't communicated effectively and then enforced. So no one knows what direction we are trying to move in, or if anyone does know they are not saying. We have a community full of energetic and creative people with no coherent overall sense of direction.
So I think it's really, really valuable to raise that issue: If the one-on-ones are really our baseline strategy...
Yes, I agree that if we do a thing we need to do it right. If we can't do a thing right, then we should get out of the way of those who can.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie
This is a good conversation - hope it gains some traction with people that can make it happen.
One more thing - wondering why we even have two categories "Listeners" and "Verified Listeners"? Why aren't ALL our listeners vetted and verified? Are we telling our visitors who are already deeply distressed that on one side we have proven, good listeners, but you are taking your chances with these other listeners?
We should make it as easy as we can for the visitor to connect with a good listener without having to sort through a lot of ambiguous choices.
Also, one shouldn't have to sort by availability. One should see immediately, once one is admitted through the "front desk" and chatted with a human receptionist (troll and emergencies filter) and created their account, be able to see a button front and center to CHAT NOW with Verified Listeners (availability is assumed because these would be the only ones you would see) or Therapists. Group chats (as much as I like them) and Forums are secondary, and should be seen further down the page.
Don't you think? 
@quietCloud22 Yes, I see your point that people who are currently called Verified Listeners should just be called Listeners. But we would still need something like Trainee Listeners for people who are inexperienced and unproven as listeners.
The general request queue is inside-out, or upside-down, or something, as I think I remarked somewhere else. When I began typing this there were 13 chat requests in the queue but 93 listeners online. So it's the listeners who should be in a queue. Members should not have to wait at all under these circumstances.
The maximum wait right now is 10 minutes. That's absurd, with 93 listeners available!
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie
Maybe we could collaborate on a draft of a website that might work better for 7cups? We could share screenshots here and get feedback from your other followers as we go? I'm a graphic designer and I have a little time now between jobs - only if you think it would be fun and not stressful. NO UNHEALTHY STRESS OR PRESSURE *she said in all caps bold.* No sandwiches allowed either.
@RarelyCharlie
@RarelyCharlie
@RarelyCharlie I don't think that subgroup data is generalizable. Haven't had time to read the linked document, though.
I agree it would feel bad to be dismissed as soon as one mentions suicide.
@cloudySummer My understanding of it was that the the same logic applies, not that the data is generalizable. The logic is that screening (which is notoriously inaccurate) has the effect of pushing more people into treatment, but both drug treatment and hospitalization paradoxically increase the overall statistical risk of suicide.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie Have you considered that that article could be confusing cause and consequence? And that there could be other reasons for an increase in suicidality in the American society and in military veterans?
I can think of many! Political climate, social injustice, socially required falsehood, health care access, rise in drug usage (illegal ones), increase of online activities, and going with that, social isolation, and for the veterans: recent war experiences.
The described side effects and the mechanism of how they come to pass of SSRI are well known.
There may be a significant bias in the way that article interprets numbers. E.g. when they compare people who get meds from their primary care doctor with those who don't - there's a reason why some are on meds while others aren't. And it's not only plain 'not wanting' of those who don't take them - on the other side, it's feeling bad enough for trying things they don't want, and doctors giving meds more readily to people who aren't doing as well. So we can maybe also assume that those people were worse off before they started taking meds.
It's also to be expected that when you screen, you will find things, so an initial increase in incidence is normal. If you don't screen, and people don't confide in someone on their own, you won't find anything. Overdiagnosis (i.e. declaring someone to be sick, while they would not benefit from treatment) is a problem, though, that goes along with any screening.
That article is a scientific mess that confuses things to a degree and lacks any form of critical questioning of own assumptions that makes it really difficult to believe any of the interpretations in it.
Medical guidelines, btw. do not recommend medication for everyone. In my country, though, the problem is that medication is available, while psychological care is not. That, however, is not an issue with guidelines or medical decision-making, it's a political issue. I assume that's also the reason why those military people don't get the care they'd need.
A revolutionary solution could be to not send them to kill people and to not glorify that kind of work so people who are not prepared for it, don't enter it ... And to work on a better social climate that reduces isolation.
@RarelyCharlie
Hunkpapa Lakota Sioux chief Sitting Bull is quoted as saying, "The love of possessions is a disease in them [white men]. These people have made many rules that the rich may break, but the poor may not! They have a religion in which the poor worship, but the rich will not! They even take tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule. They claim this mother of ours, the earth, for their own use, and fence their neighbor away. ... If America had been twice the size it is, there still would not have been enough."*
Sitting Bull was appalled at how white men treated their own, and in later years gave most of his money away to the homeless and poor. Indians would not allow those conditions - the tribes took care of their own. (I recommend the Ken Burns documentary, The West, for an unvarnished look at the westward expansion of the United States. I still tear up, thinking about it.)
The plight of veterans and of many who suffer mental illness is that of separation from their community, but therein lies our problem. What is community? How do we MAKE a meaningful community? Then, how do we make it INCLUSIVE?
*Sitting Bull: The Collected Speeches, p. 75
We all cry and are ashamed
We dont represent and should not be defined by the poor behavior of those ungrateful ones.
@quietCloud22
@RarelyCharlie
I apologize for my garrulousness - I don't mean to dominate your thread. I'm just excited that you are opening up questions and encouraging conversation on really important topics. One more little note, and then I'll be quiet for awhile and let other people talk 
Might be interesting to look at traditional healing practices across the world. Those who are sick or mentally distressed are not left alone to rot in some sterile, cold hospital room somewhere (and I do have friends in the medical profession, so not dissing them, they do exceptional work. So hard to do without community support!).
Here's one: https://www.thepermanentejournal.org/issues/2012/winter/4253-pts.html in which 6 Native American healers are interviewed. Here is an excerpt:
Healer 5 gave some examples of positive outcomes of physical injury, one for people who know their culture and one for those who do not. Of those who know their culture, Healer 5 said:
… People visit him. … We take him to the longhouse, and he gets to do the songs every Sunday. …He's going to learn more about his culture. … Maybe this person will learn their language a little more because this person is going to listen … learn to respect your elders and listen. … When you're spiritual, you listen to your inside, you listen to who's there. You can understand that it would be good to have the Creator there. That's huge. That's a big difference … you learn how to listen to your body a whole lot more. Your spirituality goes up a notch when you get hurt. It goes up. They get stronger.
@quietCloud22 There is no need to apologize. I don't mind. But if you decide to make your own diary thread, tag me and I'll certainly subscribe
The book I'm re-reading at the moment is Lila. An Inquiry Into Morals by Robert Pirsig (the sequel to the one in my reading list) and a lot of it is about the contrast, and conflict, between American Indian culture and European culture, with white American culture somewhere in between, according to the author, so I find it intriguing that culture has come up in this thread, too.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie Maybe I'll make my replies just 3 lines with the option to "read more" in a pop-up window.
Have you ever met anyone named "Phædrus"?
@RarelyCharlie Oh, one more book. Have you read Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel? I have not yet, but it was recommended to me by a friend who is an accomplished singer. (She said it would help me sing better.)
@quietCloud22 No, I have never met anyone called Phædrus. I have never read Zen in the Art of Archery either, but I now plan to!
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie Do you identify with Phaedrus? The excerpt you linked to is fascinating - Lila the real versus Lila the imagined lover.
The surreal A Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel García Márquez might also be added to your list under Individual Stories. The patriarch of the imaginary city Macondo, José Arcadio Buendia slowly goes mad, ultimately speaks only Latin and is tied to a chestnut tree where he is still cared for by his family. (I loved this book, and his Love in the Time of Cholera as well. Wish I could read it in Spanish!)
@quietCloud22 Haha! No, the author went mad and was treated with ECT, which caused memory loss. In the first book he describes gradually recovering memories of the person he was before, and he calls that person Phædrus because he seems like a different person to the person he is now. In the second book he and Phædrus have become the same person, I think. I have never experienced anything like that myself. But yes, in a way he also thinks of Lila being two people, and maybe this is similar to the way he has thought of himself as being two people.
Those books by Gabriel García Márquez sound worth reading too. There is so much to read!
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie When I was a kid, if I found a book I liked I would try to erase it from my mind so I could read it over and over again. I would read a book 4 times. I would pretend it was in a room with the door closed. Now I think that erasure technique kicks in when I don't want it to! Some of these books I'll have to read over again, but then I worry that there will be no more room in my mind for new books! Then I worry about worrying. Ah, well.
@RarelyCharlie - Thank you for this validating information.
Just added a book to my Listeners' Reading List, a book about politics, oddly. More explanation in my brief review in the main thread. It now seems more relevant than when I started reading it, in the light of the current discussions about the future of this community.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie
Here are my random, ancillary thoughts:
I found this podcast of an interview with the author of The Fractured Republic on NPR.
These are the good ole days: Anticipation by Carly Simon
Anti-nostalgic attempts to present history fairly and accurately. Ken Burns' The West and The Roosevelts, and also World War II in Colour. (We saw these on Netflix. More Ken Burns that we haven't seen also here on PBS)
Love this TED talk by a former "hate church" member, Megan Phelps Roper. (Did I see this somewhere in 7cups' self-help guides? Can't remember.)
Hope this isn't too much (AGAIN) :0
@quietCloud22 No, no, that's an impressive collection of related material!
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie
Oh, good. I do try to be helpful and keep the conversation going
And on a more personal note, the hippie movement died out just as I was trying to find my revolutionary wings, and suddenly all the good music was gone and all one heard on the radio night and day was disco. That was such a violent cultural switch, I don't think I ever recovered from it!
@quietCloud22 Fortunately folk never really went away.
My responses to the 7 Cups Strengths and Weaknesses Community Assessment.
What are the top 3 strengths of 7 Cups?
- The basic idea of active listening by volunteers is well established (since 1953) and it works well. For example, a member can come to 7 Cups, and (if they are lucky) have a chat with a listener that transforms the way they feel about the challenges they face in life.
- The basic idea of an online community is also well established (since?) and it works well. For example, a member can come to 7 Cups, ask a question or post an idea, and (if they are lucky) receive friendly and supportive replies that can lead to extensive contact with other members and listeners.
- The 7 Cups brand is well known and respected in some circles. For example, 7 Cups is in the list of resources Tumblr displays when someone searches for any keyword that could indicate they need help.
What are the top 3 weaknesses of 7 Cups?
- Over-reliance on the OKR approach to management. For example, OKR can lead to misprioritizing things that happen to be easy to measure, and to meaningless proxy targets when things happen to be difficult to measure. A very obvious specific example is over-attachment to the "320,000 listeners" number. See also: Goodhart's Law
- Over-reliance on the discredited "shit sandwich" approach to communication. For example, this can lead to resources being misallocated to things that are OK, while resources are denied for things that need urgent attention, which, either buried in a sandwich or not sandwiched at all, get little traction. There have been many specific examples in the forum, although @7CupsCommunity (after a difficult start) has recently demonstrated a more rational approach in the community.
- Severe chronic failure of the tech and community factions within 7 Cups to collaborate effectively. For example, the recent feed fiasco.
If you could wave a magic wand...
Redefine 7 Cups as a dedicated emotional wellbeing organization and outsource the technology platform. If someone else does some aspect of emotional wellbeing better than we do, we should get out of their way and actively support them. If someone else does some aspect of emotional wellbeing badly, we should make it our business to outperform them.
What is the thing that you are most proud of about on your work on 7 Cups?
I'm most proud that as a listener I've been able to help some people.
How has that personally impacted you?
The impact on me personally has been mixed—7 Cups is partly a place of good vibes and satisfaction, but partly a place of unhealthy conflict and stress.
Additional information
Are our community's periodic bouts of alienation a bug (denying support to some of those who most need it) or a feature (rightly purging people who have damaging negative attitudes)? This needs some thought.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie Me again. Well said! You can't make a shit sandwich taste like paté, even when it's made with the finest brioche, and if customers are complaining about the cuisine, it's time to make a change. But I am concerned that you say that the impact on you personally is that 7cups is "partly a place of unhealthy conflict and stress." I hope that you look after yourself and walk away for awhile when it starts to get to you. 
I've been on the lookout for books about psychotherapy, and it's been difficult to find good ones to include in my reading list. So it was interesting to come across this review of therapy books in general, posted yesterday by a well known psychiatrist: Book Review: All Therapy Books
Each of [the books] on their own can be convincing. But they should be taken in the context of All Therapy Books, which as a category are pretty worrying.
The comments thread is also good. (I do not appear there )
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie
Thanks for the link to Slate Star Codex. I started off reading the review and then got sidetracked by the hyperlinks to various other articles on the site, so it might be awhile before I get through it. I really like this website!
@RarelyCharlie That article is weird... The claims the author makes are totally opposite to my experiences. I haven't read in a single place that 'My type of therapy is the only one and the best one' - the serious people all know that what matters most is the relationship. Also, I have nowhere seen that anyone is to be expected to have a sudden, complete turnaround healing experience, as the author claims those books state. But maybe, I've been looking only at the 'right' books, or at least at a different set of books and videos from the ones the author had looked at. I'm not into 'hype' stuff, but tend to sort through things thoroughly before I read them. If they sound too 'advertising', I'm going to be careful about the contents.
@cloudySummer
But a lot of it does seem true.
As I often like to say it, "We do not have a reliable link between con-science and hard science".(or say between psychology and neurology). Basically every therapy has tried to insinuate that. Most have not been as successful as they would have liked to. Truth be told, we are not evn 100% sure of what is and isn't mental illness at this point. Their characterisation and pathologisation is often affected by the societal standards of what being mentally il is. Is today's depression yesteryear's hysteria? Why do I believe the DSM when it says that being lgbtq+ is not a mental disorder when the dsm itself is riddles with controversy by psychologists and psychaitrists over what is and isn't a mental illness diagnosis? (Read up on the dsm 5 controversy jut in case. Also I am not lgbtq+ phobic in ay way, I just used it as an example).
To be honest our active listening at 7Cups is no exception to all of this. I have personally seen people who genuinely don't benifit from it. The only thing I like about our kind of talking cure is that we let the client do the talking, and support them just like they wuld expect a good friend to. But sometimes even actual friends aren't enough.
@IntrovertedDreamer73409
@IntrovertedDreamer73409
@IntrovertedDreamer73409
The only t0hings I guess we know for sure are that suffering of some kind exists that sometimes can be helpd with our "therapies".
Just added another book to my Listeners' Reading List, a book about play therapy this time. But what goes on in the play therapy is really active listening by an expert psychologist who gets it almost perfect. The couple of times she makes mistakes reveal just how good at it she is the rest of the time.
More in my brief review in the main thread.
A delight in every way, I thought, although it's an old book that makes some people very angry these days.
Charlie
@RarelyCharlie I read that book many years ago and remember thinking that it was wonderful. Made me think of I Never Promised You a Rose Garden which I read around the same time - you might enjoy this article I just ran across about the author of that book, Joanne Greenberg. Her's is another recovery story.
...and it should be "Hers" not "Her's", sorry. 
@quietCloud22 I have started reading I Never Promised You a Rose Garden. Thank you for the suggestion 
Yes, "hers" never has an apostrophe. But the linked explanation doesn't explain anything. You could have written "Deborah's is another recovery story" and that would have needed an apostrophe. Apparently "her's" had an apostrophe long ago, according to The Grammarphobia Blog.
I think it would be a good idea to allow everyone to edit their own posts in the forum, as long as no one has replied yet. (Editing a post that someone has replied to could invalidate the reply.)
Maybe I'll try this again: 
Charlie
Now that's just ducky!
While we are on the subject, Flowers for Algernon by Daniel Keyes (has a "Charly" in it!) and Nathaniel Hawthorne's The Birthmark are all about messing around with people that might be okay just as they are. They are both short, pithy stories you could breeze through that you might remember forever, like I do.
@RarelyCharlie
But thank you! They are now on my list I enjoyed reading I Never Promised You a Rose Garden. Fascinating and thought-provoking. I was kind of disappointed when it suddenly ended, almost like all that had happened was simply switched off.
Now I'm reading The Tyranny of Metrics by Jerry Muller, which relates to Goodhart's Law and so on that I mentioned earlier.
Charlie
The above comment is in regard to my previous comment, "Her's is another recovery story." The proper possessive use of "her" should be "hers".