Charlie's notebook

@quietCloud22 A pyramid has a top If you continue in the same direction you will be going down again!

The listener levels go up to Epitome 19 and then there are no more, no matter how many cheers the listener has. For example at the time of writing this there's a listener who has 1.4 million cheers who is stuck on Epitome 19, which they reached at just over 780,000 cheers.

I suppose the member levels probably work the same way. Maybe some members are stuck at the top on Meaningful Journey 13.

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie and @LovingSparkle

Maybe the highest achievers go on to work their way up the 9 ranks of angels

In another thread, @SirJambabwe asked:

In which world does less freedom mean anything good for the majority of people ? Next they'll be telling you what colors of socks you're allowed to wear and which colors are a nono..

The question seemed to me to be off-topic in that thread, but @humorousDay8793 seemed to suggest it is of wider interest, so I'll say some more here.

Where I live, in the United Kingdom, I can be arrested and sent to prison if I say the wrong thing in this forum. Our lawmakers have decided that saying what I might want to say is not a freedom I have. Next they'll be telling me what colours of socks I'm allowed to wear. It could seriously happen here. Our lawmakers in the UK genuinely believe that less freedom can mean good for the majority.

Questions of individual freedom are not agreed, worldwide. In the real world as it is, there are places where people are more free and places where people are less free. At 7 Cups we operate worldwide. I don't believe it's realistic to try and make decisions at 7 Cups about what freedoms people should have around the world. Opinions around the world genuinely differ.

Personally, I believe in personal freedom. I don't often wear socks (and I'm not wearing socks now) but when I do I'd like to be able to choose the colour myself. I'd like everyone who wears socks to be able to choose the colours themselves.

Similarly, I don't operate any chatrooms (although I have run forums in the past). I'd like everyone who does operate chatrooms to be able to choose for themselves how they operate them.

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie

Im very sorry you are not free. Freedom is a God given right. Countries that hold their people in bondage to take advantage is very shameful to human rights. Usually those countries also control what can be taught in schools or learned. Im not against you at all.

Thank you for explaining your personal limitations to us all. I respect you standing within your laws cobfinements, but i do believe it is not fair. Freedom to think for ourselves scares the powerful people that inspire to control us for their petsonal gain. I dont want the same things happening on 7cups. Sometimes saying nothing if in your situation is more helpful to those fighting for your freedoms. Your best intetest and the best intetests of all members is of most importance on 7cups.

Fairness and freedoms ate not free, we must fight for them!

@RarelyCharlie

You don't wear socks??!!!

@quietCloud22 Not often, even though I am free to

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie There are a bunch of really funny memes about wearing/not wearing socks, but I'd probably derail the mostly somber tone of this thread by posting one. *Laughing thinking about them*

@RarelyCharlie

oh well thats the problem charlie you need to wear these socks

☺

@jennysunrise8

oh and these too...

@jennysunrise8 Oh no! What have I started?

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie

😏 lol just noticed the package on the black socks says UK large .... fitting eh mate 👍

@jennysunrise8

@RarelyCharlie could just get his ankles tattooed to LOOK like socks, if he needs too.

@quietCloud22

@RarelyCharlie tattoo imitating socks or real socks?

@LovingSparkle

There are real socks that do look like tattoos - depends how radical @RarelyCharlie wants to be.

and now it appears that "feet" are now replacing "feed".

@RarelyCharlie

progression into communism could seriously happen anywhere and i think will happen anywhere unless people prevent it from happening just like corruption inevitably happens in secrecy where there is no accountabily and the reason why accountability is so important so is checks and balances important and its no mystery what will happen when certain things are not in place if people just look back at history but maybe due to arrogance or ignorance some dismiss any lessons history might have it seems to be a reoccuring problem those who forget the past ... and some would argue that 7cups is only a business and its no more an issue than one person just making a decision as fair or unfair as that is just deal with it everyone and accept it the problem is that people see it for what it actually is a community of people a society and all one has to do is look back to see what people think about communism dictatorships and such 😁

@jennysunrise8 Yes, here in the UK we are a few weeks away from a general election and one of the big issues is how much the government should be able to control. There is no actual communist party of any significance here, but the idea of far-reaching government control is attractive to many people.

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie

not really communism but socialism (politically correct communism as some call it) im just waiting for everyone to get tired of it and realize people in control are too far removed to be able to know whats best and a libertarian movement to form and gain ground it seems to be inevitable if only there was a remote we could just press fast forward through all the stupidity 😑

It is well known that 7 Cups treats suicide as someone else's problem, and listeners must always refer to specialist suicide prevention services. So discussing suicide prevention in the general forums seems pointless.

I keep coming across things like this, though, from data in the US 2019 National Veteran Suicide Prevention Annual Report:

(VHA: Veterans Health Administration care)

A recent analysis of this escalating problem:

...gets to the mathematical heart of why the VA suicide prevention efforts have failed. The effort is based on the premise that screening will get patients into treatment that will lower their suicide risk, thus lowering the overall suicide rates. But the subgroup data shows that treatment is elevating the risk of suicide, which leads to this tragic equation: screening + drug treatment = increase in veteran suicides.

The same tragic logic also applies to suicides in the general population.

7 Cups has adopted the same premise as the VA. Listeners and our automated chat censor screen members in order to get those members who mention suicide into treatment. But the treatment has been shown to increase suicide rates. This surely can't go on.

See: Screening + Drug Treatment = Increase in Veteran Suicides

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie I don't think that subgroup data is generalizable. Haven't had time to read the linked document, though.

I agree it would feel bad to be dismissed as soon as one mentions suicide.

@cloudySummer My understanding of it was that the the same logic applies, not that the data is generalizable. The logic is that screening (which is notoriously inaccurate) has the effect of pushing more people into treatment, but both drug treatment and hospitalization paradoxically increase the overall statistical risk of suicide.

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie Have you considered that that article could be confusing cause and consequence? And that there could be other reasons for an increase in suicidality in the American society and in military veterans?

I can think of many! Political climate, social injustice, socially required falsehood, health care access, rise in drug usage (illegal ones), increase of online activities, and going with that, social isolation, and for the veterans: recent war experiences.

The described side effects and the mechanism of how they come to pass of SSRI are well known.

There may be a significant bias in the way that article interprets numbers. E.g. when they compare people who get meds from their primary care doctor with those who don't - there's a reason why some are on meds while others aren't. And it's not only plain 'not wanting' of those who don't take them - on the other side, it's feeling bad enough for trying things they don't want, and doctors giving meds more readily to people who aren't doing as well. So we can maybe also assume that those people were worse off before they started taking meds.

It's also to be expected that when you screen, you will find things, so an initial increase in incidence is normal. If you don't screen, and people don't confide in someone on their own, you won't find anything. Overdiagnosis (i.e. declaring someone to be sick, while they would not benefit from treatment) is a problem, though, that goes along with any screening.

That article is a scientific mess that confuses things to a degree and lacks any form of critical questioning of own assumptions that makes it really difficult to believe any of the interpretations in it.

Medical guidelines, btw. do not recommend medication for everyone. In my country, though, the problem is that medication is available, while psychological care is not. That, however, is not an issue with guidelines or medical decision-making, it's a political issue. I assume that's also the reason why those military people don't get the care they'd need.

A revolutionary solution could be to not send them to kill people and to not glorify that kind of work so people who are not prepared for it, don't enter it ... And to work on a better social climate that reduces isolation.

@RarelyCharlie

Hunkpapa Lakota Sioux chief Sitting Bull is quoted as saying, "The love of possessions is a disease in them [white men]. These people have made many rules that the rich may break, but the poor may not! They have a religion in which the poor worship, but the rich will not! They even take tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule. They claim this mother of ours, the earth, for their own use, and fence their neighbor away. ... If America had been twice the size it is, there still would not have been enough."*

Sitting Bull was appalled at how white men treated their own, and in later years gave most of his money away to the homeless and poor. Indians would not allow those conditions - the tribes took care of their own. (I recommend the Ken Burns documentary, The West, for an unvarnished look at the westward expansion of the United States. I still tear up, thinking about it.)

The plight of veterans and of many who suffer mental illness is that of separation from their community, but therein lies our problem. What is community? How do we MAKE a meaningful community? Then, how do we make it INCLUSIVE?

*Sitting Bull: The Collected Speeches, p. 75

We all cry and are ashamed

We dont represent and should not be defined by the poor behavior of those ungrateful ones.

@quietCloud22

@RarelyCharlie

I apologize for my garrulousness - I don't mean to dominate your thread. I'm just excited that you are opening up questions and encouraging conversation on really important topics. One more little note, and then I'll be quiet for awhile and let other people talk

Might be interesting to look at traditional healing practices across the world. Those who are sick or mentally distressed are not left alone to rot in some sterile, cold hospital room somewhere (and I do have friends in the medical profession, so not dissing them, they do exceptional work. So hard to do without community support!).

Here's one: https://www.thepermanentejournal.org/issues/2012/winter/4253-pts.html in which 6 Native American healers are interviewed. Here is an excerpt:

Healer 5 gave some examples of positive outcomes of physical injury, one for people who know their culture and one for those who do not. Of those who know their culture, Healer 5 said:

… People visit him. … We take him to the longhouse, and he gets to do the songs every Sunday. …He's going to learn more about his culture. … Maybe this person will learn their language a little more because this person is going to listen … learn to respect your elders and listen. … When you're spiritual, you listen to your inside, you listen to who's there. You can understand that it would be good to have the Creator there. That's huge. That's a big difference … you learn how to listen to your body a whole lot more. Your spirituality goes up a notch when you get hurt. It goes up. They get stronger.

@quietCloud22 There is no need to apologize. I don't mind. But if you decide to make your own diary thread, tag me and I'll certainly subscribe

The book I'm re-reading at the moment is Lila. An Inquiry Into Morals by Robert Pirsig (the sequel to the one in my reading list) and a lot of it is about the contrast, and conflict, between American Indian culture and European culture, with white American culture somewhere in between, according to the author, so I find it intriguing that culture has come up in this thread, too.

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie Maybe I'll make my replies just 3 lines with the option to "read more" in a pop-up window.

Have you ever met anyone named "Phædrus"?

@RarelyCharlie Oh, one more book. Have you read Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel? I have not yet, but it was recommended to me by a friend who is an accomplished singer. (She said it would help me sing better.)

@quietCloud22 No, I have never met anyone called Phædrus. I have never read Zen in the Art of Archery either, but I now plan to!

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie Do you identify with Phaedrus? The excerpt you linked to is fascinating - Lila the real versus Lila the imagined lover.

The surreal A Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel García Márquez might also be added to your list under Individual Stories. The patriarch of the imaginary city Macondo, José Arcadio Buendia slowly goes mad, ultimately speaks only Latin and is tied to a chestnut tree where he is still cared for by his family. (I loved this book, and his Love in the Time of Cholera as well. Wish I could read it in Spanish!)

@quietCloud22 Haha! No, the author went mad and was treated with ECT, which caused memory loss. In the first book he describes gradually recovering memories of the person he was before, and he calls that person Phædrus because he seems like a different person to the person he is now. In the second book he and Phædrus have become the same person, I think. I have never experienced anything like that myself. But yes, in a way he also thinks of Lila being two people, and maybe this is similar to the way he has thought of himself as being two people.

Those books by Gabriel García Márquez sound worth reading too. There is so much to read!

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie When I was a kid, if I found a book I liked I would try to erase it from my mind so I could read it over and over again. I would read a book 4 times. I would pretend it was in a room with the door closed. Now I think that erasure technique kicks in when I don't want it to! Some of these books I'll have to read over again, but then I worry that there will be no more room in my mind for new books! Then I worry about worrying. Ah, well.

@RarelyCharlie - Thank you for this validating information.

@RarelyCharlie

Thinking more about how 7cups can better serve those in crisis and also reinforce the efforts which support our mission, which as you've identified and seem to be what Glen is saying, are mainly the one-on-ones. How do we improve the quality of our one-on-ones?

Create a "front desk" staffed with real experienced people, not a bot, that filter trolls out, and can immediately and compassionately direct visitors to emergency resources, or the listeners (either in the General Request queue or our listener "stable"). Just putting listeners regardless of their experience on the front line and expecting them to handle all kinds of requests is irresponsible and counterproductive. Having a bot or a pop-up message in place as a possibly suicidal person's first contact with 7cups should be unthinkable.

Having a human filter up front would efficiently cut down on the time wasted in chats, chatrooms, and forums with people who demonstrate malicious intent. Perhaps trolls can be rehabilitated? This may be an important matter for future discussion.

If the one-on-ones are really our baseline strategy, then let's go for it and do it right. What do you think?

Hope you enjoy the rest of your weekend - none of my posts need to be immediately replied to, just hoping that they are palatable food for thought whenever you get around to it. Sending relaxing, seaside, sunny thoughts your way!

See, no socks!

@RarelyCharlie, and I believe you put this idea in my head a while ago, so the credit is yours.

@quietCloud22 Ah yes, If the one-on-ones are really our baseline strategy... But who knows what our strategy really is? Do we actually have a strategy?

It seems to me that at the heart of many, if not all, of 7 Cups' difficulties is that either there isn't a strategy or the strategy isn't communicated effectively and then enforced. So no one knows what direction we are trying to move in, or if anyone does know they are not saying. We have a community full of energetic and creative people with no coherent overall sense of direction.

So I think it's really, really valuable to raise that issue: If the one-on-ones are really our baseline strategy...

Yes, I agree that if we do a thing we need to do it right. If we can't do a thing right, then we should get out of the way of those who can.

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie

Okay, then, what can we do to empower this initiative of self discovery for 7cups?

@quietCloud22 It seems to me we are powerless. Not because someone else has the power, I suspect. 7 Cups seems to have some kind of structural strategy resistance that prevents anyone from having that power. It does seem to me that the unmentionable is somehow a symptom of it.

A curious thing, for example, is that access to group support was removed for people who lack certain badges. OK, a management decision. But I lack the required badges and when I go to look for the chatrooms I just see an empty space. It would have cost almost nothing to use that empty space to explain what badges are needed and link to the forum discussion. There seems to be some structural reason that prevents anyone from having the power to coordinate that kind of thing.

Charlie

@RarelyCharlie Who knows what they are keeping their IT guy busy with these days. I think there's only a single one left. Maybe he only does exactly what he is told to do? ... And someone forgot to think of it?

Maybe thinking for oneself is penalized, it sure looks that way often enough. So people stop thinking, to keep their job?