Can treatments really work?
Anybody suffering with depression, anxiety or OCD for 20 years or more, despite receiving treatment wonder why their condition hasn't improved?
I don't believe the treatments can EVER work. As they aren't designed to target the root.
Would love to discuss this topic.
I believe I know why, certainly in my own personal case and literally thousands of others I've spoke with also
@LetsChillOut 7 Cups does not allow listeners to seek support, unfortunately. We must use our member accounts for that. So there is a risk that someone will delete this thread. I hope that deleting the reference to your own personal case will be enough the save the thread.
Anyway, it's a good topic for discussion. My understanding of it is that when CBT was first invented it was designed to target the root cause of depression. Later, it was also used for anxiety, OCD, etc. By targeting the root cause, the treatment worked and was permanent.
However, new forms of CBT were soon invented, and other therapies too, that did not target the root cause. These therapies can sometimes be a complete failure, and sometimes work only temporarily. Unfortunately, the term CBT does not distinguish between the original and the new forms.
I do agree that anyone who has been trying something for 20 years without success does probably need to try some other approach.
Charlie
If the thread is deleted so be it. I just believe there are people here, who are receiving professional treatment for such conditions that CANNOT and WILL NOT bring about the results they need/want.
I'm not selling anything, or advising, I was merely looking to discuss the topic. I also notice that "support" comes in many forms. From listening down to practical advice. Something which people across the globe are afraid to do....incase they are blamed or sued for something.
Which is exactly my point regarding any mental health issue. The truth will set people free....trouble is not enough people are willing to speak about the truth....because that upsets people.and in this modern world upsetting people is friend upon.
But sometimes in my experience the hardest things to hear and often the things most valuable to us.
Thanks for your contribution.
@LetsChillOut
Cheers for your post! I hope it doesn't get deleted. I'd love to engage in that discussion. It's something that NEEDS to be talked about. Let's see what happens.
I'll kick it off......certainly this was the case for me...not everybody. As and ex sufferer of 25 years which started as mild anxiety, to general anxiety, to panic attacks, to agoraphobia, to depression and finally chronic OCD.....with all the above still.....i was repeatedly told by therapists that i wasnt doing the treatment right and i wasnt recovering because of my lack of compliance to the exposure.......lets not get this confused.....OCD forms in a response to repeated exposure to uncontrollable distress....wether from something that happened to you in the past or something that is happening in your current environment. for whatever reason the thing couldnt be confronted and dealt with, so we developed "distraction" methods inorder to detach from the pain. that is all OCD is. repetitive distraction methods to ease the pain. OCD is not a disease, it is a habitual pattern formed by repeated attempts to escape uncomfortable emotions. FEAR has nothing to do with it. OCD is attempted emotional regulation. exposure will do nothing, perhaps build delusional confidence, but then the exposure itself becomes a compulsion, i must do so many exposures to feel better......and just that phrase "compulsion" makes it seem that what you want and need is a bad thing...when in reality it isnt. your mind and body is telling you that you need to seek safety for example....from overwhelming stress....and obvioiusly your need to feel safe is important and you must seek it. your emotions are trying to alert to you that something or someone in your life isnt the way you want it to be. the treatments for OCD are incredibly poor and contradictory, and none of which are capable of curing only coping. You must fill your life with things that bring you the emotions you want to feel. OCD is triggered by stress...again, OCD is an emotional regulation technique that eventually takes over your whole life. because life is full of stress, well it is, but only when you are living a life you dont enjoy. when you are in relationships that you want to be in, jobs you want to do, and friends with people you want to be friends with, there is no stress. stress is trying to tell you something needs to change...and quickly, you wouldnt consume a food that made you want to vomit, and view the fact it did as an "illness" that needs treating, you dont like the food so stop forcing yourself to eat it. you wouldnt watch a movie you found not interesting and then think "oh its my OCD talking, i actually do like it and must habituate to the feelings of boredom and dis-interest" thats nonsense, if you fill your life with activities that make you feel good, make you feel happy, alive etc.....you will forget about it. exposure only does one thing.....re-affirms to you that you dont like this...and you are crossing your fingers hoping the distress subsides.....which sounds suspicioulsly like a compulsion to me...whatever you place your focus on will grow...if you practiced piano everyday you will become better at it over time...if you practice focusing on the things that make you feel scared or afraid.....youll become better at being afraid, and your body will learn to react quicker to that stimuli...too much introspection is a very bad thing....before you know it you are obsessed with how you feel...leaving no focus or concentration left to be put on things that CAN change your emotional state...how many sufferers are stuck with partners who abuse them or workplaces they hate.....which manifests as stress...learnign to habituate to that feeling will accomplish nothing..only prolong your suffering re-affirm to you that you have no POWER or CHOICE in life. which again is exactly what OCD is....the POWER to control the way we feel.....soon leaving you trapped in the mind to escape the distress...because the real root of the stress ISNT being dealth with. its being "habituated" to and "ignored" unmet needs are the only cause of any emotional distress. stop doing things you dont want to do, stop being friends with people you hate...and stop pretending your are happy when you arent...you whole inner self is screaming our for you to listen and ACT, learn to focus outwards instead of inwards. all of your symptoms dissappear when you are engaged in something you love. therapists earn money from keeping you in a loop..they sell hope to the hopeless........and the treatment statistics are incredibly flawed. how many people return to therapy after treatment? many and infact most, just not to the same therapist, for feelings of shame and inadequecy, they seek another one....and the cycle continues. figure out what in your life is causing you stress....deal with that exact problem....and OCD cannot and will not exist anymore. habituation is nonsense, you can not and will not habituate to something you do not like, and by doing this you are telling your mind body and soul that what YOU want doesnt matter, and that how you feel, you shouldnt feel it. look into your environment, which things arent you happy with or dont like....and put a plan in place to change them. emotions are there to guide you........listen to them.....dont "habituate" or ignore them. best of luck
@LetsChillOut
Thank you, thank you, for starting this discussion. I agree with SO MUCH of what you posted of your experience. I'll continue the discussion with my own.
I don't suffer with general anxiety, panic attacks or OCD as a rule. I have experienced all of it at one point. All of that is my body's reactions and symptoms of something else. Namely, as you said, the root stress. I live alongside CPTSD and currently have extreme depression. I'm a survivor of multiple traumas, some lasting years, and a lifetime of abuse. I've sought help for both and found very little.
My CPTSD therapist was a godsend for me. In large part because he was completely honest. I saw several other therapists before I found him. All in my quest to find out what was "wrong with me". None helped. Most said anxiety, you should take medication, don't stress so much. Let's work on desensitization, immersion, try CBT, EMDR. I don't think I saw any of them more than twice. None would hear me when I kept saying that wasn't me. Until I found a retired Army Captain that specialized in treating the military and wartime PTSD. He was honest. Brutally so. He nailed it. Immediately. The root cause of both my PTSD and depression. I will never forget the day he told me that what I'd been through was akin to having spent five years in a war zone. Because, in fact, at its core, what I survived was a similar experience. He helped me understand that. I finally heard that all the things I felt were my body's reactions to the abuse and years of trauma. It was normal! There was nothing, absolutely nothing, "wrong" with me.
Change is a part of life and yes, I'd changed as a result of the trauma. I learned to accept that. He gave me the tools I needed to handle the symptoms of PTSD. No medication, no affirmations, no complex therapies. Just two simple tools. When it strikes out of the blue, stop and take a look around. Be aware of where you are. You'll be better equipped to handle it the next time. Time was the second. Time to feel safe again. Time to allow my body to readjust. Or perhaps adjust to a life without abuse and trauma. It had to learn a "new" normal as much as I had to understand intellectually. From that time on, I began to get better. I won't say heal. I don't believe "healing" is the right word. We cope. We adapt. We change. Anxiety, OCD, depression, other mental and emotional problems are not wounds. They're the body's attempt to deal with the things we're avoiding and incapable or unwilling to face. It is indeed as you said, coping mechanisms for what we're not listening to. Unmet needs, harmful things, inner conflict.
I'm deeply, deeply depressed. I'm fully aware of that and why. Medication might alleviate the symptoms. It won't address the root cause. Therapy might give me a little more insight. To what end? It won't change anything. My depression isn't something that's going to be "fixed" or "healed" by either of those things. Having support makes me feel better at that moment. Doesn't last long. Not that I don't appreciate it because I do more than I can say. I'm learning to reach out for it. What will truly help? A change in my situation. One that I work for every single day. Diligently. I have no control or choice with some of it. All I can do is my part and try. Until that change happens, I cope as best I can. Some of my coping methods are flawed. I'm aware of that but if it's the best I have "at that moment" I need it, that is what I will use.
Doing nothing changes nothing. Repeating the same actions gives the same results. I believe many people can and do benefit from therapy and medication. I've seen that firsthand often enough to not doubt it. But I also believe that if something isn't working, ACT. Do something different. Find the root cause and address it. It's painful, it's hard. It can be done.
@RarelyCharlie @LetsChillOut
I see no problem with this, personal experiences can be shared. If the overall purpose is to support members it's ok to discuss what has worded for a listener and what has not.
@LetsChillOut
Hi I have had depression and anxiety for more than 20 years (no ocd). I have had improvements in these conditions with treatment thankfully.
8 years and counting ðŸ˜
This is really difficult to argue.
1. Degree of issue is different in everyone.
2. The root lies pretty deep buried under layers of insecurities, habits, lies, fear, misconceptions, labeling, societal pressure & image, self pressure & image & childhood experience.
3. Now, the degree of openness to face all the above is also different in everyone. In the sense, one does know something is not right but would not want to confront other aspects of themselves thinking its not related. Or simply, is scared to. There is a certain degree of comfort and a leap of faith required at many steps in the process.
4. With All 3 above, the treatment can do some portion of the job (kinda get you battle ready or like gears of war) but some layers need to be faced/peeled of by the person themselves. Because those layers are thicker than others.
5. And even after all this, one could be suffering after 20yrs or more but if they have developed enough awareness & practices amongst themselves to get through an episode without affecting more damage mentally/physically, I really take that as a win.
@Listener89104
Quotes here along with my thoughts.
1. Degree of issue is different in everyone.
Agreed. I'll add to that combinations and the complexity thereof. How deep do the roots go and how many are there. I don't "have" CPTSD. It's not a thing to possess or not. I live alongside it. I believe there's a difference. The very word complex implies a great deal but actually defines how much?
2. The root lies pretty deep buried under layers of insecurities, habits, lies, fear, misconceptions, labeling, societal pressure & image, self pressure & image & childhood experience.
Agreed. I'll note that all of these are either negative in and of themselves or can be so. Each can be taken as a learning experience. Finding the root requires a great deal of deep introspection and I do not believe there is ever really only one root.
3. Now, the degree of openness to face all the above is also different in everyone. In the sense, one does know something is not right but would not want to confront other aspects of themselves thinking its not related. Or simply, is scared to. There is a certain degree of comfort and a leap of faith required at many steps in the process.
Absolutely. Fear and avoidance are the some of biggest obstacles to overcome. One may know something is wrong but fear to take action to change it. Or simply not know how. Thus leading to avoidance. This can be mental, emotional, physical or psychological. The first step of admitting to oneself that there is a problem is the hardest barrier to break through. Deciding to do something about it is the hardest action. I believe that's where many get stuck. They question exactly what to do, when or how, or what can they do and thus remain undecided, in avoidance and in conflict. The answer lies in doing some thing. Anything small can help make that leap of faith. Not making a decision is a decision itself.
4. With All 3 above, the treatment can do some portion of the job (kinda get you battle ready or like gears of war) but some layers need to be faced/peeled of by the person themselves. Because those layers are thicker than others.
I view treatment as a toolbox. Use the right application of the right tools, for the right length of time, to do the job at hand. Applied incorrectly, it results in a poor job. The wrong tools can damage the work or leave it unfinished. The person is the craftsman. Ultimately, they must select the right tool and use it correctly. Even then, no one will produce the same thing twice and there will always be variability between different people's outcomes. A good therapist functions much like a good apprentice. They can hand tools and help point things out but the layers have to be peeled and reassembled by the craftsman. And as I said earlier, TIME is one of those tools. It takes as much or as little time as as it takes. The clock only runs out when the craftsman decides it's been enough time.
5. And even after all this, one could be suffering after 20yrs or more but if they have developed enough awareness & practices amongst themselves to get through an episode without affecting more damage mentally/physically, I really take that as a win.
Agreed. I also take that as a win. It's an unfortunate fact that there are some things in life that we will never truly "get over". The old saying of "you can not unsee what you've seen " is very applicable here. We may move on and repair the damage but we will never forget. It still lies in our minds. That's what makes us human and all unique individuals.
@LetsChillOut
yes I suffer from depression