Module 4. Interpersonal Effectiveness: (Discussion #2) Interpersonal Rights

@QuietMagic

Great post, Josh, thankyou for investing your time in this wonderful series. 💜

And lolol the text in the bracket xD

I think it's a nice reassuring reminder that these things are okay, having some interpersonal expectations is okay ~ I do not "disagree" but like, some of these are hard to kinda "bring in practice" lol, if it makes sense? XD somehow you know certain things are okay and *valid* but it's our own personal discomfort (for the lack of a better word here) that kind of 'prevent' us from validating some thoughts and beliefs for ourselves. Definitely something to work on though. Baby steps haha! 😊

@Sunisshiningandsoareyou

Thanks, Sun. 😊 Yeah, I want people to feel comfortable saying, "At least for me, this thing doesn't quite work as perfectly/easily as people often suggest it will."

Can understand what you're saying where there's a difference between intellectually agreeing with it being okay to expect things vs. feeling comfortable enforcing those expectations in certain situations.

@QuietMagic I don't really disagree. I mean - these are great. They're things I wasn't allowed as a kid. But I've also found that now as an adult they're still hard to have. I guess like Sun said - they're hard to put into practice

@mytwistedsoul

That's a good point and something I'm sort of struggling with as well in terms of the idea of rights. Just because I believe a "right" is great or worth respecting doesn't necessarily mean other people will feel the same way. The practicality of interpersonal rights depends a lot on the moral/psychological makeup of the people around me and whether they happen to believe the same things I do.

If other people do have similar values or care about the same things I do or are open-minded enough that they can shift their values based on new information, then I can appeal to that shared moral/emotional/experiential/intellectual foundation and there's a good chance that they might care about my perspective and be willing to modify what they're doing. (Then the way I'd interpret the DBT interpersonal skills is that they help to minimize conflict and maximize the chances of successfully getting what you want when interacting with that particular group of "persuadable" people.)

But if other people don't see things from my point of view or have that same foundation, then there isn't much I can do to change that. I still have the freedom/control to decide how stubborn/demanding I want to be in my own course of action and I can decide to accept any possible consequences that might come from that (e.g. being ridiculed or losing friends), but I don't necessarily have the power to make other people understand or care about my perspective.

One way I sort of think about the rights is that it's like, "Here is a list of things that the psychological community considers to be reasonable to ask for. And they've found that it's conducive to optimal well-being and social harmony when people are willing to mutually agree to honor these types of requests."

@QuietMagic I agree with these. There are barriers that make them hard to have. First, I need to assure myself in knowing that whatever rights are important to me are legit. No one else can tell me as an adult what I am or am not allowed to do outside the law. Then, I need to clearly communicate those rights to the people around me that might be affected by them or that I need support from. I know now that I can do that in a kind way and still be transparent. Like for myself and my mistakes, if I go back and forth about what I’m ok with, that can be confusing to them. I can’t expect them to know my innermost thoughts and feelings. Being direct and firm is frightening to me, because what if they don’t like it? What if they get mad, sad, or leave? Really, so what if they do? What do I have to be scared of any more? If they yell at me, they’re not right for me. If they leave me, they’re not right for me. If they’re sad, I can talk more with them to hopefully help them understand it’s not personal. If they continue to hold it against me, they’re not right for me. If they hit me, they’re certainly not right for me. They have no power over me like when I was a child, unless I let them. So I should do me, and they do them, and if it’s right it will work with a little effort from both of us. If it doesn’t work, don’t mean I did anything wrong. Getting mad about how someone else wants or needs their life to be is futile. We can compromise on some things and keep it simple, but if it becomes too complicated and things conflict on a basic level or blame gets thrown around, then to me that’s where a line needs to be drawn. No one is indebted to anyone.

To me, the point is if I haven’t completed the first step of deciding what I want and I give mixed messages, then I can’t get mad at them for whatever they decide to do either. I need to respect their rights too and not expect anything from them. I can ask up front and hope it will work for both of us, but I don’t have to give up mine for them, and I don’t want them to give up theirs for me. If I’m not upfront, it’s not fair to them to be left to choose the wrong thing or wonder, or to be disappointed later if they went along with something I said I was ok with and didn’t fully share my feelings. People don’t automatically know what it means if I just start avoiding them, quietly changing the rules, or gently letting them down here and there. It used to feel like I was being nice doing that, but over and over I see how it hurts them and me.

@EmbracingChaos

Hi--I love all of what you've said here. Just going to try to share what I've understood from it.

You feel like a necessary first step is to explore your own wants/feelings and have an understanding of what it is that you want from people. Then, once you know that, the next step after that is to approach people, present your wants, and ask for what you would like them to do.

If you don't know what you want beforehand or it's still shifting around, then anything you ask for ends up becoming blurry or mixed and you can't really blame others if they feel confused or have a difficult time implementing it. Likewise, if you don't communicate what you want at all, then they're sort of left having to guess and it's also understandable that they might not be able to meet expectations if they aren't aware that those expectations exist.

On the other hand, if you communicate your expectations and people say, "I'm not sure if I can do that" or are unhappy with it, your thought process is, "That's okay if they don't want to. I can find other people who might be a better fit and we're both free to do our own separate things, and that might be better for both of us." Likewise, if in general things get too complicated or messy with someone, it's acceptable for there to be a point where someone steps back and says, "I'm not sure if this is working".

@EmbracingChaos

By the way, I just want to apologize in advance for the fact that I won't be responding directly to all of the other posts you've been making around the forum today. (Ordinarily I would try to, but I'm leaving 7 Cups mid-next week so I'm pretty swamped with trying to tie up loose ends.) I'm really glad that the topics/posts have felt stimulating and interesting and I hope that exploring them has felt helpful. 💜

@QuietMagic you really did relay that all perfectly, thank you!

When I first started reading your reply, I thought “Oops, I hope they don’t have to reply to all the other posts I’ve been making the last few days!” I actually hadn’t expected any replies. I was just so engaged in topics all over the site. I really enjoy reading these concepts and other people’s takes on them.

Thank you for all my writings you have responded to since I joined here. You have a very comforting way of interacting with people. You have contributed so much, I’m only just discovering some. I wish you good sailing wherever the wind takes you.

@EmbracingChaos

Aw, thank you, and it makes me feel good to hear that you felt comforted. 😊 Yeah, the forum team has been working really hard over the past year, and I feel good knowing that all of those posts/resources will still be there as a sort of legacy for future people to use as a reference.

And that sounds great that you're exploring, playing with ideas, and just bouncing things around to try to gain a better understanding and see how you feel and what seems like it might be helpful. 👍