Little corner for @poisontongue and @Celaeno
Celaeno
September 5th, 2015
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This is the copy of my conversation with @poisontongue from the thread Depression Community - How do you actually feel today?. We are moving it here, so it will be easier for us to continue our little chat. If you want to, you can join us.
Wish I could just choose not to be. No matter how long I am around, no one will ever care... there will be no one who can understand this, who I can turn to. My life is empty and devoid of meaning. Every day is another lesson in futile loneliness and boredom. It's all needless suffering. That's all my worthless life is, needless suffering. Alone.
@poisontongue - Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:49 PM
Others' experiences are theirs only. No denying in that one, @poisontongue. I will never be able to really know the depth of despair you're feeling day after day after day day, without a rest. I wish it wouldn't be true, but not from wishes is this universe build. The harsh reality is that whatever vicious pain you're experiencing, I'm not able to comprehend it.
But it doesn't mean I can't listen to you.
I think you're brave, because you've reached out to us. And I think you're strong, because you fought for so long, and if persistence isn't the greatest sign of character, I really don't know what is. You're a warrior which tries to make every day their own, even if you feel it's pointless.
Your pain doesn't define if you have worth. You just have it simply by breathing this world's air. We don't have to prove that we deserve the stardust' particles which form our bodies. You have a point, because you have your mind, and that's it. No loophole in here.
Your pain doesn't define if I care. I want to listen to you, and to hug you, and to ease your pain, even if I am oceans and lands away from you, because I'm also struggling. I'm struggling with my own monster and you won't comprehend its size neither. But it's okay. To be honest we are not here to understand, but to support each other. To hold on when one of us is drowning. To use our arms when one of us want to lean and rest for a bit. To walk beside and to listen without judgement.
Your pain doesn't define you. You are more than your suffering. You are a cosmos of ideas and emotions and endless possibilities. You don't have to act on that essence - you just are. You're wonderful, because you are. You're enough, because you are.
Surviving is enough. Don't push and hate yourself for not having a "good, normal" day, to not feel so broadly and painfully, "to run with a broken leg". You have a depression, and this is an illness which makes lots of things impossible for a certain span of time. Just try to survive. Focus on making through the hours, and minutes, and seconds, until the night falls. Then focus on making through the hours, and minutes, and seconds, until the sunrise. Survive and know you are doing well.
It's so difficult to fight. It's so easy to stop. But you're worth this fight. You deserve a life without this pain and despair. Even if you're brain tells you otherwise.
Please take a good care of yourself, darling. I will be around here if you need anything. I care about you and your pain cannot take it from you.
*hugs*
Thanks... you are so well-spoken. I'm so afraid... so alone...
Posted by @poisontongue - Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:48 AM
@poisontongue, thank you for your kind words. I believe when you tell you are never mean. I believe when you say you feel afraid and alone. I'm here for you.
I was diagnosed with depression for 3 years, and living with it for 8. And even after all this time, I'm still getting scared by my illness. But it's okay. I'm okay, and so do you, no matter what your brain tells you. It may seem that you feel you will never be truly happy, and that the society will resent you, but I don't know that. We both don't know about the future, so it's pointless to keep guessing. Over-thinking often makes me want to dig a hole and bury myself alive, so I'm trying really hard to avoid doing it. It's simply not worth my mental health.
I'm sorry you don't have support in your life. I'm sorry that you feel this community isn't enough to fill up this black hole in your mind, but maybe there isn't anything to fill it up*. You have depression, so it's impossible for you to feel connected. It's not your fault. It's nobody's fault. You have depression. At the same time you are more than your struggle. You are more than a medical label. You are worth the treatment. You are worth a life without this suffering. You are you, wonderful, unique you. And I'm here to hug you - even if only virtually, my embrace is still valid. I'm new in this community, and I met you very recently, but I'm sorry I couldn't be here for you earlier.
You need to be better equipped for this war with your own brain and feelings. I encourage you to learn about depression. Read lots of articles, watch movies, ask your doctor questions, hear about other's experiences with it. Educate yourself, so you'll know what are the weaknesses of your enemy. This is a real battle, and you need to take care for yourself.
Btw, how are you feeling today? How did you sleep, lovely?
Love!
* You were a child who was made of glass,
You carried a black heart passed down from your dad.
If somebody loved you, they'd tell you by now,
We all turn away when you're down. (...)
You carried a black heart passed down from your dad.
If somebody loved you, they'd tell you by now,
We all turn away when you're down. (...)
And when you're gone, will they say your name?
And when you're gone, will they love you the same?
If not, that's okay."
And when you're gone, will they love you the same?
If not, that's okay."
Heheh... usual sleep, 6 or so hours, then laying two more. Waking up half-tired and with a hole in my being. I will wake up and sit here on the computer and listen to music like I always do.
It's okay, I'm new too. I would come here and look and not join. I've tried being a part of so many places that I just expect it to end the same way. Like the way my entire life has gone.
I'm afraid even to talk to anyone, even online. It's rather pathetic, but then again so is everything else about me.
Posted by @poisontongue - Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:11 PM
@poisontongue, I'm sorry you feel that way. I understand you have many disappointing experiences in your past, trying to connect with another human being. I don't want to push you, lovely. You just are so hard on yourself, feel so hurts and alone, my heart is breaking.
I see pieces of myself in you. I was lucky to find here, in this community, one kind soul who just gets me. Absolutely, whole heartedly, understands me and my struggle, and doesn't judge me, even when I say horrible things about myself or the world. I'm so glad I found them, because before them there was a string of disappointments. They were 15 in this row of listeners, and from the distance of time, I'm so glad that I didn't give up my search. I was so desperate to be heard. I just wish for you feeling similar connection as I did.
Would you mind telling me, what kind of music you are listening to? I'm simply curious.
Sending all my love!
So much failure. It makes sense though, because why would anyone waste their time on me? Maybe I need to be pushed, since I'm so reticent of my own accord. :p
At least you found someone though. That's great :p
Normally I just listen to the same old meaningful songs, Pink Floyd and the like, but today I'm in search of sad metal songs.
Posted by @poisontongue - Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:28 PM
@poisontongue, I don't know. For me it's hard to ever say that anything makes sense. I often found the things I took for granted rarely were like that in its core. I know that this universe is so vast, and complicated, and full of unpredictable lives, even after centuries of humanity's discovers I think there is too many unknowns. Every one of us has a cosmos inside themselves. It seems to me that it's close to impossible to know for certain why the others behave and treat us such and such. We all have our insecurities, and flaws, and demons to fight with. And you already said that it is impossible for others to truly understand you - and I presume it must works in both ways.
I like Pink Floyd. I remember my dad would play "Another Brick in the Wall" when I was little. He also used this song to teach me very early on that the educational system is unfair, and I shouldn't really mind it ^^
Did you hear about 8tracks? It's a neat website with loads and loads playlist, and you can define your search with emotions or themes or tropes. I really like it - the depression tags is full of great mixes, and I heavily use it. But I think you will also find something for you - here, take a look.
For a long time I didn't understand anything about myself. A lot of that had to do with the world, like the way others treated me or the way medical professionals viewed me. I still don't feel like I understand completely, like I've always got to be uncertain, that I can never be entirely sure or right ever. Studying psychology and sociology shed a lot of light on the forces that drive people. Still I guess I don't really get so-called normal people.
Pink Floyd is great :p They encompassed so much meaning and emotion in their songs. I can listen to The Wall movie soundtrack and feel the isolation inside my own wall.
I do have 8tracks on my phone, but I forgot about it. So I'll have to check it out again, thanks :p
Posted by @poisontongue - Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:10 AM
Not a problem, @poisontongue. And you're absolutely right! I feel the same - I don't understand myself most of the time, like I'm just sitting passively in the eye of the maelstrom. But reading books and articles on psychology helps me to form a bigger picture of my needs, and suddenly I realize that maybe I'm not as sophisticated, as I like to believe ^^;
My depression makes me so egocentric that I'm focusing constantly on myself, and my own sufferings, and I rarely just stop and think that maybe, just maybe, during the centuries of risings and falls of civilizations, there was someone who felt the same way. I think it's the case of simple statistics.
How did you sleep today? I hope you didn't have any nightmares.
Love!
We are supposed to know ourselves best, too... we are the only ones who can represent and defend ourselves against medical professionals and others. It's difficult when you can't even represent yourself properly.
Fine, maybe about five hours. I'm sure I'll have to sleep more like usual.
Posted by @poisontongue - Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:21 PM
I'm glad to hear it, @poisontongue. Can I ask you about something? What part of the day is harder for you - falling asleep or waking up in the morning? I discovered that there is a division about this subject and it fascinates me. I always thought the answer is straightforward, because for me mornings are the worst.
On the topic of confusion: yup. It frustrates me, because how can I feel better, how anyone can help me, if even I don't know what I'm experiencing? Unfortunately this is not the flaw in our characters, but the symptom of the shared illness, which deceives us constantly. We are confused, because we have depression - not the other way around.
Love!
I can stay up all night when it's quiet and without expectations. Yeah, mornings are harder. It's never really time to get up and face another day.
It would help if I knew how to deal with other people. If I wasn't at such a failed state of life maybe I could determine what I wanted and what I needed to get out of this. But everything wil just confuse your senses to no end.
Posted by @poisontongue - Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:03 PM
@poisontongue, for the past months I feel disappointed when I wake up. Knowing that I have to keep fighting and push through this day again is hard for me. My days rarely differentiate from each other, so it's easy to feel unmotivated at the mere beginning of the day. I think there won't be anything in it for me. When I have strength I try to create a meaning of the passing hours by myself, but it is energy-draining.
It's good that you're self-aware of your situation in life and needs. I think you are already doing something for yourself just by knowing that you should do something.
I gather some resources for you - maybe they will help you figure out some steps? I marked the ones I used and am using myself:
I hope they can help you in anyway.
Love!
Aw :( Mine are also the same day repeated so it's difficult to get going, let alone feel like I'm going to create meaning out of it.
I wish I could actually do something about my situation.
Thanks for the links. I really am a loser who badly needs assertiveness and communication skills.
Posted by @poisontongue - Tue Sep 1, 2015 5:02 PM
@poisontongue, I'm sorry if I upset you. I don't think you are a loser. On the contrary, I really like this our little chat, darling. I just send you these two links on communication links, because you mentioned that you want to know "how to deal with other people". I think that we have certain limits to force someone to understand us better. However we can learn more about ourselves and how we express emotions or opinions to make it easier for the listener to get our point.
I really believe you can do something about your situation. You already started to question your state! You don't have to change your whole life, just start on a tiny, little scale. For example, reading links I provided is a great way to begin. See, if any of the texts resonates with you in any way. And then, but only then, make a little change in your life. It really doesn't have to be groundbreaking. Don't think of building a temple, just lay bricks, lovely.
No, I'm fine :p I appreciate it. Being cruel like that to myself feels nice sometimes since I can go so long pretending not to know. It beats asking myself something like, "Why would anyone want to try talking to me?"
If I look at the big picture, I can probably find out that I have indeed progressed in some ways... but I can look at the rest of the picture and be absolutely ashamed and disgusted by my perpetual failure. I'm so far behind in life and I'm not even sure that I'd be too happy if I wasn't.
Posted by @poisontongue - Wed Sep 2, 2015 4:00 AM
@poisontongue, try no to over-think why would anyone want to talk to you, and just enjoy the chat, like I do ^^
I can relate to the strange sense of satisfaction with trash-talking myself. I feel like I deserve the harshness and bitterness. Like my inner voice must speaks of truth, because why shouldn't it? It's a part of me, so it cannot lie. And it quickly becomes a habit, to constantly criticize myself. But it's not my voice. I'm not mean to people. I don't manipulate. I don't use their weaknesses to beat them to the ground. But this inner voice is constantly doing it to me. We are not our thoughts. It's a strange statement, but it's a true one. We can think all of the horrible things in the universe, but we are not them. We are more than our thoughts and feelings. Thoughts are relative, they're the product of experiences, perspective, personal character, homeostasis, and many more. They are flexible and can be changed. That's why CBT works for anxiety and depression. It's not a miracle cure, and it's not a witchcraft. Sometimes it's enough to feel good. And definetely it's enough to make you feel better, when you learned to silence this pesky voice inside your head.
It's great that you made a progress! I think that's one of things which matter to me in life - to just move forward, even inches, but move. I don't mind how far or in what direction, just keep trying, keep guessing and fight. Don't give up. I mentally associate standing still with a sign of depression and that's why I really try hard to focus on little, achievable steps, like drinking enough water (I drink so little last month I get feverish and sick). Slowly, but steady. Like an iceberg ^^
It's difficult. Even online most people have no interest, have their own concerns and better options that make someone not so special irrelevant. Outside life is just a lost cause. So I try to be happy that anyone is talking to me, even though I must expect it to be short-lived.
It's ironic - the people who are mean don't really seem to be mean to themselves, but we have the capacity to be. I don't believe you deserve it. I think I've done a good job changing that voice and being nice to myself... it only manifests now after all this time because of the total loneliness and frustration with lack of progress that I try to ignore the rest of the time.
It is so, so frustrating to realize I'm still staring at the same gap between the person I wish I could be and who I actually am even after years of subjecting myself to uncomfortable situations, being called brave sometimes when I sure don't feel it, and so forth. I'm glad you can realize there are little steps to be made and have the patience for them. Drink your water :p
Posted by @poisontongue - Wed Sep 2, 2015 5:57 PM
@poisontongue, thank you for the reminder - I already forgot about it ^^;
I don't believe any of us deserve it... For me it seems unnatural to be nice to myself. I have this feeling that I am faking it. On the other hand, I am easy to reason with, and I can be convinced with rational arguments, so mostly that is the card I'm playing during inner dialogues.
I think everyone has their own concerns and it's impossible to expect from other people attention. We all busy living our own lives. We are selfish beings, and that was the way we survived all these millennials. It doesn't mean that real and honest connections between humans never happen. They do, and they are precious and rewarding. We are capable of compassion and empathy, but living with a certain expectation how interacting with others should look like will be painful and miserable. Because it will undoubtedly lead to disappointments. There is a nice quote from Paul Hauck on this topic:
"Unfair and unkind behavior in exchange for your loving efforts is the rule rather than the exception."
And now something completely different, did you think of starting a blog? Or maybe just writing your thoughts down and sharing them here? I like reading your posts, and you have a perspective that I think this community could benefit from upon knowing. The biggest problem with depression is that it makes people misunderstood by society and that silenced us. Your voice is important.
Heheh. It can be a little hard at first, but you get used to it.
Emotions vs. reason, huh... at least you've got something to hit back with, that you realize you can rationalize with yourself. Because I know how unusual it can seem to be nice, especially when the world around you is typically not so nice. Of course, if we're not nice to ourselves, who will be? Often both my reason and emotions seem to team up, heheh. All I have really done is tuned it out and stopped thinking again.
Unfortunately, that quote is right on. I've learned never to expect anything from anyone... still, it is awfully lonely when you find yourself unable to make real connections with the human race. That sense of anomie only leads in one direction. I get so tired of ending up angry and depressed at the way things are and the way people are, even without thinking of the fleeting interactions I've managed that have failed.
Well, I guess I have a sort-of blog... on that other site where I mostly talk to myself in what amounts to incoherent rambling and whining about my situation, heh. Nothing really worth reading... I don't think I'm capable of finding worthwhile topics and thinking them out. Perhaps it is, "The time is gone, the song is over, thought I'd something more to say."
Ah, maybe I could figure it out somehow... someday... actually be of use.
Posted by @poisontongue - Thu Sep 3, 2015 2:43 AM
@poisontongue, yup, learning how to stop thinking for a while, and just step back from the constant noise in your head, is a great skill to have. Sometimes turning off your bickering thoughts is enough to banish the anxiety, and to feel the weight from our chest and shoulders lift up.
I can understand the exhaustion. But you are still trying to make the connection. It's lonely and disappointing, but it's not the point. Reaching out is already enough. And there are billions of people who feel lonely, despite the number, despite the crowds. You can meet some of them here. Maybe you will discover someone new, someone lost and tired, who also look for the second chance. You never know whom you will stumble upon. I never thought there will be someone in this thread, who'd like to converse with me further.
You are of use already. You breathe out carbon dioxide for plants to grow. Your skin is a microscopic ecosystem for little bacterias, busy with their tiny lives. You absorb the sunlight to produce your own vitamins and cast shadows. Every particle in your body was made in the hearts of stars, so you are literally made from stardust. It maybe seems unimportant for you, but think about it for a while. You are a part of this universe. You are a part of the cycle. Everything wouldn't be the same without you. the balance would be disturbed. You don't have to proof that you're worth anything, you just are. It's the default setting for everyone.
You want to be the best version of yourself, to fulfill your potential. You want to strive and excel your past mistakes. I admire that. But how will you know you attained your limit? How will you know you reached the horizon, when horizon is constantly moving farther and farther away? I know how it is to be disappointed in yourself. But we are feeling that way, because we are forcing upon ourselves an unattainable template of goals to achieve. If it only make us feel more pain, why are we insisting on holding onto it? It doesn't seem logical, I'm afraid.
Life is messy, and painful, and complicated. But I believe we are unknowns in this vicious circle, we have choices and unlimited potentials to make an impact. And there are millions ways to make a difference in this world, e.g. you can decide to apply your experiences in a different aspect of life. Borges said that:
"All that happens to us, including our humiliations, our misfortunes, our embarrassments, all is given to us as raw material, as clay, so that we may shape our art".
I'm sorry I use quotes so often, but there are/were so many intelligent, sensitive people who can explain things simpler and than me ^^;
You can create a meaning of your past and future actions, because you won't find it any other way.
I'm happy to hear that you're writing, that's great ^^ I find it very therapeutic myself - not because I'm trying to discover some hidden truths, but because it's a good feeling to think of words and put them down. You don't necessarily need to write on some profound topic. Just gently keystrokes to express your voice and thoughts are enough. Besides, creating routine for yourself in depression is very important.
Ok, I'll stop preaching now - sorry about this incoherent ramblings ^^; Let me just know how did you sleep today.
Lots of love!
Just don't be like me and stop thinking for so long that your brain breaks :p
Why wouldn't anyone want to talk to you? :p I wish I was capable of doing it in my life, but considering how bad I have been the very few times I have tried online, it's probably better that I don't bother people. I'll look there though.
I wish other people would believe that, that I (along with many others) are worth something. Beyond how far we can be used, for are we not living beings, let alone ones with thoughts and feelings? So thanks for your words. It may be kind of a secret desire to meet someone in person who will always view me like that...
I don't even know what to say about my ability to create meaning. Life is definitely messy, painful, and complicated... I tend to feel now that there's no meaning at all to any of it and it's just been one big permanent rejection from society and anything that might have mattered in life.
Weekdays are usually better than weekends for the express reason that I at least have a routine (less time to bask in my pointlessness, loneliness, and so forth), which typically includes writing. It is nice to get the thoughts out of your head and onto paper, even though even that tends to be a struggle. So I hope that someday I can actually be heard and have these words make an impact.
Sleeping was kind of a mess again. I think I woke up early and I can't even tell if I managed to fall back asleep. I know I laid there for two hours before I got up.
Posted by @poisontongue - Thu Sep 3, 2015 11:21 PM
@poisontongue, I'm glad you will look around in that thread. Let me know how it's going.
I've cut out, as much as I could, toxic people from my life. There is no point to sustain relationships which don't have any value for you, and only makes you miserable. Living is already hard enough, and there are 7.3 bilion human beings in the world - I figure we don't have to limit ourselves to the poisonous ones ^^;
Lovely, there is no meaning. You had a good hunch about it. It's impossible to hunt it down, so if you are looking for it in your world, it's natural you'd start to feel meaningless. There's just no place in this universe to find it. However, you don't have to feel that way. You can create meaning by yourself. You have the power to give events, actions, memories significance. Only you decide what's important for you, how to react, what to feel. You are completely in control, wonderful. (There is a book by Covey Sean, along these lines, I highly recommend it for you.)
I understand you, weekdays are easier, because they just force you do fit into the productive system of society. It's ironic that we feel the worst on weekend, when the rest of the world relaxes. Oh well, that's life...
You are already heard, lovely. I know I'm not a big public, but you have to start from somewhere ^^ Don't overwhelm yourself with big goals - dreams also works on a smaller scale. You have a "blog", so your voice is already out there. That's enough.
Sorry to hear about your sleep. Let me tell how do you feel today.
Lots of love!
I wouldn't even know what to say there :p
I guess it's a good thing that I never had many people to cut, although it's bad when the toxic person is your own family and you're in a situation where you can't really escape them. Because it's so great to be able to disavow oneself from those influences that would be painful even if we weren't vulnerable...
Creating meaning in an otherwise meaningless world... thinking too much :p I don't know if I'm capable, considering the humiliation that is my life. I've never felt in control. I've never been good at being proactive.
Well, I'm not exactly productive... :p But I've still found something to hang onto. That irony has always gotten to me, that the days alotted to relaxing are always the worst days. Nooo... I want to be able to enjoy my time away from routine, and yet those days are routines in and of themselves.
It's really nice to feel heard for once, as I've spent my entire life being on mute. All I have left are goals of normalcy that seem so unachievable. If only that blog wasn't terrible :p
Sleep is such a mess. Today I'm being taken out, but it's to the same place every year. It's like repeating another day.
Posted by @poisontongue - Fri Sep 4, 2015 5:40 PM
@poisontongue, in the loneliness support forum you can say the same things you are telling me now- about your disappointments, lack of worthy connections. Maybe you can start another pleasant conservation, just like you did in here. Btw, I think at some point we need to stop the chain of replies, and move somewhere else, because the posts' format is getting thinner and thinner ^^;
Family is a strange thing. They can be toxic, and at the same time you can find there some kind of entertainment or consolations. You can always look at the things from two or more points of perspective - even when it's abusive, as sorrowful as it sounds.
Maybe you weren't good, but that doesn't mean you won't be. Everything in life takes practice. Even hatchlings have hard times learning how to flap their wings, but in the end they are soaring in the sky. With my narrow knowledge I really believe you can learn how to be more proactive. You deserve the life you want.
You may feel discouraged, but sometimes it's nice to change a scenery. Repeating another scenario is still experiencing something different from your ordinary routine. Despite the bore it could provide you, I wish you a pleasant time!
Lots of love!
I can try. I wish I didn't have to be afraid. Yeah, I was wondering if we were taking over the page, although I am enjoying watching the boxes shrink. Where else to move? :p
Family is a very strange thing... being so dependent on them and bound to them and yet they can use you and tear you down in a way that others can't. I wish I was a free person.
I am trying... it is slow and agonizing and I can't even be sure I'm making any real progress. I've just ended up in such a hole I can't even see daylight and I have no confidence in my ability to get out.
It was all right, today. Little distractions in obtaining more stuff, go figure xD I'm more worried about the weekend. Who knows how I'll manage to waste time when I've got nothing but time (and yet a shortage of it, how ironic). I don't intend on feeling as down as I did last time.
Posted by @poisontongue - Sat Sep 5, 2015 8:03 AM