Was it rape? Did he know?
So I have found myself here after talking 1-2-1 with one of the listeners which was really helpful. Basically, it happenend many years ago. I met a guy online, not a dating site or anything like that, we were fundraising for a charity and people would chat online about fundraising methods and occasionally meet up in person. A group of us met had a good time, and went our separate ways. We had all swapped phone numbers to arrange the meet up (stumpid mistake #1). A few days later one of the guys gave me a call and said he was coming to my town for a conference and would I like to meet up for dinner so he wouldn't be all lonely and bored while he was here. I said yeah why not. At no point was this a date.....we went for dinner and had a good time, he spoke about his wife and family, we spoke about the charity....it was a nice meal.
After the meal he said he couldn't remember his way back to his hotel, so I agreed to walk back with him, just a few hundred metres so he could find it (stupid mistake #2). When we got there he asked if I would come into his room, he said he had a gift for me to say thank you for meeting him, and he said he wanted to call be a taxi so I wasn't walking through town on my own....he wanted to know I was safe....
Anyway, (stupid mistake #3) i went to his room. I didn't feel in anyway threatened, the thought that he might try anything hadn't even crossed my mind. We got to his room and he gave me a bunch of flowers, I thought it was a bit weird I suppose as why would he not have brought the flowers to dinner? But I thanked him and gave him the local taxi number to ring. But then he kissed me, I pushed him away and laughed it off, I still didn't actually feel threatened, just thought he had got the wrong end of the stick. He said he wouldn't do anything i didn't want him too, so i thought good, thats OK then...still not feeling threatened.
Then he pushed me down on the bed and lay on top of me, I said no, I told him I didn't want to do anything..but he didn't stop. He told me how beautiful I was, and how lucky he was to have me. he kept saying he wasn't going to do anything i didn't want. I kept asking him to stop and I tried to push him off but he was too heavy...but even then I didn't actually realise what was happening.....it was only when he started undressing me, and undoing his trousers that I actually realised what he was going to do...I completely froze I couldn't speak so I didn't say no anymore, and I didn't fight him off. All the way through he was saying he wasn't doing anything I didn't want and telling me how lucky he was.
Afterwards he just got up, pulled up his trousers and said, OK I'll ring you that taxi now, and I left.
I never reported it at the time as I knew no-one would beleive me, I had gone out to dinner with him, and I had gone up to his room. I said no at first but then stopped saying no and I didn't fight. I thought he might beleive it was consensual too as I stopped trying to stop him.....and because of what he kept saying....
I have buried this for years and not told anyone, but it keeps bugging me......maybe it was rape, maybe he did know....is it rape if he didn't know I didn't want it.......
I keep alternating between thinking it was all in my head and I maybe didn't tell him no enough and he thought I had changed my mind when I stopped fighting so it was fine......but then I think, he left flowers for me in his room, before he set off to meet me for dinner, he had planned that I was going to go back there, no maybe not only was it rape it was pre-meditated.....
I just don't know
That's actually an interesting question. I'm sure many would define rape as non-consensual sex. While that sounds good on paper... who asks Permission? Sex is usually the culmination of intimate contact. It's a natural progression of intimacy between two ppl. I don't think many ppl 'Ask' before proceeding further
Viewed in that light... it would seem some level of force would be necessary to call it rape. But what level? For instance: A persistent guy isn't necessarily using force. On the other hand, using intimidation or not taking No for an answer clearly is wrong
Whats the answer if she agreed to sex... but the guy got her drunk first, and did so intentionally. It appears there are some grey area circumstances
@ChromeLotus you're right I think. I imagine it's down to did he genuinely not know? For me I said no many times, I told him to stop, I never 'joined in' so I don't think I believe he couldn't have known really.
@ChromeLotus - It's not just that many people would define it that way, the actual definition of rape is sexual contact without consent or with someone unable to give consent based on age, mental capacity, state of intoxication, or unconsciousness.
With regards to what you said about 'who actually asks', many people do in fact. It doesn't have to be clinical in nature, but confirming consent along the way by asking if something is okay, if they like something, seeing if they are reciprocating or furthering the contact, etc. allows for consent to be demonstrated. And even if people do feel there's ambiguity, if someone says no, that's unambiguously the absence of consent and accordingly, rape.
@Anomalia
I don't think it's appropriate to attempt to contradict my statements, or quote Lines from my Post. I don't pick apart your messages. You can express your own thoughts, without trying to Tear into my Post. I stand by what I wrote!
@bean151 - Yes, that was rape. You said no. Repeatedly. And he ignored what you said. There is no part of that that is you giving consent and there is no part of it that makes it okay. And most importantly of all, it was not your fault.
You listed 'stupid mistakes' in your post, but I don't think they were. You acted like a reasonable person who trusted that they were safe with a person they had received no indications otherwise from. Frankly, reading it all sounds a lot like how I would have acted in a similar situation - I absolutely would have gone to the dinner, walked him to his hotel, and likely even gone to his room based on what you knew.
It's not your fault that he abused your trust to get you there and it's not your fault that he forced himself on you - the blame lies solely on him and his ignoring you saying no and pushing forward anyway.
Now, I know that just having that said doesn't change all of the feelings you've been holding in for so long, and that's okay - your feelings are valid and they are real. But I hope that with time you're able to talk about it more, work through those feelings and recognize that this is not your fault. And if you ever need someone to talk to, you are more than welcome to reach out to me. Take care, dear *hugs*
@Anomalia thank you
@Anomalia I just need to say thank you again. I have kept what happened to myself for years and tried to convince myself I was over reacting or something. I thought if I spoke up people would think I was stupid either for letting myself get in that position, or for thinking that it was wrong. To have someone believe me is a relief. I think I know it was rape, I probably always knew really.....and I think he probably knew too. Thank you for not judging me
Bean151- In my initial Post i was exploring the idea that a grey area, may in fact exist (in certain circumstances) I was speaking generally
In your specific situation... you said No. That being the case, he was clearly in the wrong. None of what happened after that point, was in any way your fault
@ChromeLotus oh ok, thank you. I understand
@Bean151 - I wanted to let you know that your post is back up!
It initially got caught in the spam filter (a very imperfect filter!) along with your posts asking where it went. The good news of that is that it means no person deleted the post, but the bad news is that our spam filter is definitely still a work in progress since it's catching real posts from real people. I apologize again that it happened, and hope that you do find the support here that you are looking for! :)
@Anomalia Thank you, I really appreciate your help in sorting this out.
I feel this
I told my husband everything, I told him all about what happened and I told him about how it affects me, I told him why sometimes I say no to intimacy why I push him away, and how it makes me feel when he sulks because he feels I heve rejected him. I told him what my 'triggers' are and how I am trying to break them. I tried telling him face to face but really struggled so I wrote it in a letter and I was terrified of how he would react. I felt stupid and embarrased and I was worried he would be angry for not telling him sooner, or upset or judge me, I felt like I have been lying to him all this time by witholding it and I thought that might upset him...but do you know what this amazing man said to me first?
He said 'I am in awe of you and how you have dealt with this on your own for so long. It proves to me how strong you are'
Wow, what a guy, he not only has supported me, but he hasn't made me feel like I need to be rescued, or like I am broken and need to be fixed, the very first thing he says makes me feel powerful and in control....I knew I loved him but wow.
@bean151 - I am so incredibly proud of you for opening up about this and being so honest with your husband - I know that took a lot of courage and strength to do, and I am unbelievably happy that he responded so well. You deserve to be believed and to be shown all that love and kindness.