7 cups: Now Joining the Ranks of Separating the Rich from the Poor.

Sorry for the mistakes!

Should be:
... if some lawyer now says ...

... in our too uncompassionate World ...

@Sorceress

I'm not an admin or mod or anything really ;)

I agree with what you are saying, but I'll reserve any type of judgement until it is announced what exactly making the donation would mean.

I would personally like to see a one time donation option.

@JeffWM

Check your front page and the green subrscription button to see what I mean. The 'backing' also only lets you donate at least 5$ per month.

@JeffWM

Right now, the one-time donation option does not exist because they are trying to establish a steady revenue. It is possible, once they know they get to a point where they can survive, the one time donation option will become available.

@Sorceress @JeffWM

I'm sorry you feel this way. If you have other ideas for making 7 Cups sustainable long-term, please share them. The services you use at this time will remain completely 100% free. In order to make sure those remain free for everyone, we have to generate income in some way. Here's how I look at it:

Is it an ideal situation? It's not the best or the worst. However, I try to remember that if we opt to not try to generate revenue in some way, that also means 7 cups simply won't exist. Sometimes we have to choose our battles. And, I want it to exist.

Hello @Sorceress! I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this new addition to 7 Cups of Tea. Your post reminded me of a book written by my favorite artist, Amanda Palmer. In her book The Art of Asking, Amanda discusses how everyone in our society seems to struggle at some point in their lives with asking for anything--for help, for attention, for support--and why that's just silly of us. Most people struggle with asking quite a lot, and sometimes we struggle with seeing others ask as well. Which is strange, because what's really so wrong with asking?

Something I really love about 7 Cups of Tea is the way it allows people to ask. It encourages people to ask! No matter how challenging it can be to ask for what we need or want in our daily lives, when a member comes to 7 Cups they find a place where asking is not only accepted but actively encouraged. You've likely asked from 7 Cups of Tea before, just as I have and every other member of this community, listeners, members, and guests. A place like this--a place of genuine asking, giving, and receiving--is rare in this world, and I really appreciate that 7 Cups provides that for us.

In her book (which is excellent, and something you might enjoy reading!) Amanda Palmer discusses the difference between begging and asking. Begging, she believes, is when a person demands without giving in return. Asking, however, is more of an exchange. Asking is optional. Asking builds a connection, begging does not.

7 Cups is not begging. 7 Cups is asking. They're saying, "Hey, we love being able to help people. We'd like to raise some money so that our nonprofit can do more work for our awesome community, since some funds are required to keep the site running for all of us to benefit from." They're not requiring anyone to give anything. Your access to the regular site that you've always had is not restricted at all. Donating to 7 Cups will bring you a few extra perks, because asking, unlike begging, is an exchange. But the existence of these new perks does not take away from the functions of the site and ability of every single person who comes here to be able to receive help and access necessary resources.

No one is required to give. I would certainly have a problem if 7 Cups became a service that you had to pay to use! But thankfully, that is not what this is at all, because if you don't give your 7 Cups experience will stay exactly the same as it's always been. This is not demanding. This is simply asking, something 7 Cups has a right to do--especially when you remember that the donations are being invested right back into the community to help it grow. Of course, you can have a right to do something and it can still be morally wrong. This, however, is not. It is not wrong for anyone to ask. It is not selfish or weak or discriminatory or cruel. Asking is a part of being a piece of the human race. It's simply saying, "I'd like to do something and I could use your help if you'd like to give it. If you don't, it's okay. I'm just asking."

Amanda Palmer made history by being the first musician to raise over a million dollars with a Kickstarter campaign that funded a new album of hers. Her fans gave her money so she could create art for them. Fans who didn't donate to the campaign could still listen to her music, but people who wanted to support her and had the means to do so could, because to provide music for them Amanda needed money. There was nothing wrong with what Amanda did with her Kickstarter campaign. Amanda asking her fans to give money if they wanted to didn't mean she was creating her music only for the wealthy. To provide a service for people she needed funds. Giving the money was optional--I didn't give any money to the Kickstarter campaign but I still enjoy Amanda's music! And likewise, there's nothing wrong with 7 Cups of Tea asking--asking, not demanding or begging. Anyone can donate now if they want. If they don't want to, they can still use the site exactly as they did before and will also benefit from the results that new funding will bring to the advancements of the site. It's a win-win.

I can completely understand why you're leery of this change. I actually wasn't a fan when I first heard about this! But then I took the time to learn a little more about what was actually being done, took a step back, and remembered that there is nothing wrong with asking so long as the giving is optional (as this is). Their asking actually doesn't have to impact your 7 Cups experience at all--all that changes for you if you don't donate is that there's now a new bottom at the top of your screen. Your resources here are unchanged. If you want to give you now have that option and will receive a few perks in gratitude for what you've given. And if you don't donate you are absolutely always still welcome here.

@theworldisquiethere--To add on to your thought on this:

"I would certainly have a problem if 7 Cups became a service that you had to pay to use!"

I would have a problem with this also. And the point of adding the donation/upgrade options is to avoid having 7 cups become a pay site in the future :)

@theworldisquiethere

So, I read through your long PR-crap which doesn't convince me a tiny bit. Asking is asking for a service. Begging is nothing but a derogatory word for asking. Asking money and offering something in return - let's turn it around since it logically does not change the meaning: offering something and asking money for return is called selling. So please, cut the bs.

What I was really bothered by - and is apparently removed now, thank you for that - was how you tried to manipulate someone (with e.g clinical depression) to pay money with a sentence: 'Want to feel better? Subscribe now'. I think selling stuff online is completely okay for many things. Right now using a dating site with a very similar strategy and don't give a damn. But compassion - the word you use so frequently - is not an asset to sell!! Because the very moment compassion costs money it loses its meaning and becomes a costing therapy at best.

You bring an example of the musician using Kickstarter. Why not do the same? Also, I love how Adblock the program is using something Kickstarter-ish.

The same old 'but the things you use now will always be free'. Well, works for a dating site (although over the years it looks like it also means - 'the free stuff will not be bothered to be developed much further') but this is dealing with people suffering from clinical disorders and emotional problems. The core definition that separates a clinical disorder from just emotional problems is that a clinical disorder is hindering one's necessary functioning. This includes everyday chores, and even more, working. Which means, of-course, little or no money. I am pretty sure for many people sites like this are the only help they can afford.

7 cups came along, offering a safe compassionate haven from the cruel World. Well, glad it lasted a whole 1,5 years! Now, welcome back the the World where you don't matter as much as your money does. Okay, free stuff is still there. But money entitles you for much more 'compassion'! And this is what makes me sick. But I understand - and sorry for going all political now - that in the country of US where even hospitals bill the s... out of one it is an acceptable behavior. So glad I am from Europe!

But I thank you for something: you made me realize what is really missing in this world - true compassion. The one that asks no money, nothing in return. I encourage anyone reading this to just do some kind act to someone. Even a small thing. We don't need [to pay to a] site for that actually.

Glad you made it reading this until someone took some harder means to silence me.

Hi @Sorceress! Thanks for reading through my post—I know it was a long one and I really appreciate it!

I think the problem here is that theres been a slight misunderstanding in what the new Back 7 Cups actually is, which is completely understandable! But the good news is that Back 7 Cups is actually not making 7 Cups of Tea a paid service. Its not selling the services that 7 Cups of Tea provided for you last week or will be providing for you this week, nor does it prevent anyone with any mental illness from using the site. Everything that youve always been able to do on 7 Cups of Tea is still right there whether you decide to become a backer or not, and you are of course welcome to use these resources if you dont become a backer.

Back 7 Cups is actually unconnected from anyone having a clinical illness because it doesnt make it harder or easier for someone with a clinical illness from using the site. I can tell you that from my own experience as someone with a clinical illness, given that Ive had no greater difficulty in using the services that 7 Cups of Tea provides since the new program began! If you have a clinical illness, you can feel free to donate. (After all, its not fair to stereotype all people with all clinical illnesses as not having the means or the initiatives to donate. While some people might not, its also important to remember that experiences are not universal and we wouldnt want to unintentionally further stereotypes on 7 Cups of Tea.) You can also feel free to not donate—its totally up to you, your means, and what you feel liked doing! Personally, I wont be donating right now. Not because of my clinical illnesses but because Im seventeen years old and dont have the kind of resources at the moment that allow me to, even though I strongly believe in 7 Cups of Teas mission. The Back 7 Cups initiative is not designed to drive anyone with a clinical illness away from the site. Its actually here to make sure the site is able to continue to help people in the future (whether the person has a clinical illness or not). The goal of the Back 7 Cups program is to make 7 Cups sustainable. 7 Cups of Tea is a nonprofit organization, but nonprofits need funds to exist and grow just like companies that work for profit do. To provide services for you and I, 7 Cups needs resources. The Back 7 Cups initiative is a new idea that 7 Cups is trying out to try to raise those resources so that 7 Cups of Tea can continue to benefit me, you, and everyone who uses it. And what I really appreciate about the Back 7 Cups initiative is that you dont have to give money to be able to continue using the site, because 7 Cups totally understands and respects the fact that not everyone is in a position to pay for the services they offer or even wants to pay for the services they offer. Perks are being offered because when someone gives you something, like a donation, its fair to give them something in return. But these perks dont mean that a section of the site is being shut down to people who havent become backers. Your resources are going to be unchanged. And the money that backers give isnt going to only benefit the backers. That money is going to be put back into 7 Cups of Tea to benefit everybody, whether they had the means or the inclination to give personally or not.

You might find this thread about 7 Cups of Tea and Sustainability an interesting read, and I encourage you to check it out! I think its a little difficult to fully understand the Back 7 Cups initiative without reading that thread.

Something I found really interesting in your post was that you mentioned that 7 Cups could use a Kickstarter campaign instead, and I wondered why that was. Because from my perspective, I cant really see the difference. With Kickstarter, 7 Cups of Tea would still be asking people to give them money if they wished to, and offering them something in return. (Theyd likely be offering the very same perks!) The only difference is that theyd be doing so off of the 7 Cups site, and that actually seems like a drawback to me. Id rather this community be supported by the people who actually use the service and genuinely care about it, and I think this program will be more successful (and consequently benefit everyone more) by asking from the people who use the service instead of from the internet at large. After all, you and I have an actual connection to 7 Cups of Tea that people whove never used the site might not. This is a site thats helped us, so it makes sense for use to be the people that 7 Cups asks for help when it comes to long-term sustainability. It makes the situation remain an equal exchange.

I really appreciate the way you're encouraging others to do random acts of kindness--I agree wholeheartedly! But it's also important to remember that donating money can be an act of kindness. Money doesn't mean something ceases to be compassionate. Money is just...money. It allows 7 Cups of Tea to exist and continue to exist. If people want to perform an act of kindness by supporting the site, that's their prerogative and it's really nice of them to do so! But if someone doesn't want to give money to the site, that's also okay, and I admire any other acts of kindness that they do equally as much. Giving money doesn't make an action more or less kind. Giving money can be a kind action in itself, but not giving money also doesn't mean a person can't be kind. On the flipside, needing money doesn't mean a person or a service is lacking compassion. It just means they need money to provide a service! Money and compassion aren't dependent on each other.

I wholeheartedly agree that it would be extremely uncompassionate if 7 Cups of Tea were to become a paid service. Thankfully, however, thats not what the Back 7 Cups initiative is doing, and I think that misunderstanding might be the root of the problem here. (Which is why I definetly encourage you to read that thread on sustainability, because I think it might clear some things up for you!) That being said, I noticed that you seemed to specifically not like the way the actual asking is happening on the site, which I think is an interesting thing to bring up! If youd like to suggest changes in the wording for the Back 7 Cups initiative, I highly encourage you to use the Member Suggestion Box. And of course, if youd like to submit any ideas that you might have for making 7 Cups of Tea sustainable that could work as alternatives to the Back 7 Cups program, it would be greatly appreciated if you could put those ideas in the Member Suggestion Box too. There might be a better idea out there, and your sharing them can only help the community!

@theworldisquiethere

Okay, I first thought I was talking to an official representative here...

You either deliberately or undeliberately missed my point completely and are repeating over and over again the same 'but what is free will be free' mantra. But I think there is no point of us arguing because you are way underaged. (Yes, this makes you mad now, but before you waste your time on the defence speech of 17-year-olds, I will assure you - you will know what I mean when you are 25).

Only one more thing, a simple search shows the truth and I think THIS is the actual misunderstanding here - 7 cups of tea WAS NOT STARTED AS nor IS a non profit organization. It is a business.

@Sorceress

I understand that the fact they are a business upsets you. But where was it ever stated that they were not-for-profit? I don't think the site was ever deceptive on that matter.

@RocketsMom

Well, the poster above does. And tbh... it doesn't disturb me of 7cups being a business. Hypocrisy disturbs me.

@Sorceress

Can you please PM me? :)

@RocketsMom I thought it was a nonprofit. I had to ask. Guess the dotcom rather than dotorg should have been a clue .

@mutter3

Yep, it's not a non-profit. For many reasons. Glen wrote on it in his section of the forum :)

@RocketsMom I read it

@theworldisquiethere

In the interest of making sure that we are providing accurate information, I just wanted to make sure that you know that 7 Cups of Tea is NOT a non-profit organization (@Sorceress is correct). I think what you are trying to convey in your post is still accurate--but, the site is not a non-profit. Please feel free to message me if you have questions :)

Thank you, @RocketsMom! I also feel that that detail doesn't negate the point of the post, but I really appreciate the clarification Sorry for mispeaking!

@theworldisquiethere

No worries! The message was the same either way :)

I've spoken to a couple of admins regarding this and they are looking to implementing one-time donations as an option -- though they want to establish what will work as a sustainable revenue first.

HOWEVER, one-time donations as well as several other improvements are definitely on the table from what I've ascertained.

I think it would be better if everything was free with the option to donate but it prompts you to do those. So you would use something like for instance the chat system and then after a few days it would say something like, "Did you find this chat helpful?" "If you did would you consider donating to 7 cups..." or if you did a growth path it would ask you after you completed a step.

There is Financial sustainability to be concerned with: no doubt.

Many years ago, some friend and I started a Non-profit in order to get the disabled on the (then newly public) Internet. This was years before AOL and Compuserve existed. We rented a space and would and put two or three broken, donated, computers together to give away. That was the "relatively" inexpensive part. The part that took deep pockets was paying for our own Internet service, phone lines (I believe we had as many as 96 at one point), electric, and rent. Each of us spent about $15k - $20k / year out of our own pocket to pay our bills.

We did consider bringing taking in 'contributions' and eventually allowed for monthly users to pay for Internet service with an email. It was all very exciting. As it grew a tiny bit, we realized that although people were willing to pay for a 'service', it was quite difficult to get people with the proper expertise to give of their time.

Some laws changed and we had competition from other Internet Service Providers and then, rather quickly, companies like America Online and General Electric's Compuserve. I'd like to believe that's what caused us to close up. The truth is our service was spread too thin. We had weekly classes on setting up Internet service (in English & Spanish) and would make house calls to deliver, setup, and train those who were disable.

Yes, we could have looked towards other places for donations of money. We decided against that since the money was not our major concern.

Financial sustainability is important. Having a service is equally important.

I was recently mentioned in a post concerning becoming a part of 7 Cups that works mainly on the messages. As humbled as I am, as I continue to ponder my decision, I wonder if I can devout the proper time to such a worthy cause.

I try not to sound conceited, but I do believe that personal storms and demons have caused me to gain a certain perspective that allows me to merely remind people who are suffering that they are deserving of compassion, kindness, patience, and love from themselves. My own experiences have led me to have personal perspectives on how we are all, in our own way, suffering and (almost blindly) looking for the pain to cease. I have personal opinions that I try and share, when appropriate, that we too often don't look towards the actual cause of our suffering, but look towards, often destructive methods of relieving ourselves of our pain.

Sometimes all I do is remind the suffering soul that they do not necessarily deserve to suffer anymore and that they are deserving of their own compassion. I also try (as much as I am able through a screen and mere words) that their suffering causes me great sadness and that I often think of these individuals and those whom remain silent. I care for these people just as they are, scabbed angel's wings, and all.

Perhaps I'll ask if they would consider looking for assistance getting onto their path, or if they can separate many issues so they can deal with them one at a time.

I have nothing prophetic to offer, just (what some may call) a 'seasoned', compassionate ear.

I don't do this nearly enough. I am aware of that. I try to do what I can. Can my efforts, or those of many others be monetized?

Of course, if 7 Cups is unable to pay its bills, then no one is able to ask for assistance and no one is able to offer an ear and (hopefully) the ability to clarify and prioritize the causes that bring people here.

On the other hand, if 7 Cups is unable to build and sustain a well rounded group of concerned individuals that are willing to give of their time will it eventually grind to a halt or become yet another 'social media' site.

It is a difficult balance. How do you do one without the other? Which is more important to live having a working heart or working lungs? Of course that's a silly question.

I don't have an answer. For me I would like to be able to donate when I am able. (Sadly, certain bills come before others.) I would also like to remain looking at recent posts, so I can answer to the newest, so someone who is suffering can see that their post is actually read. As you can guess from this post, I try to really think things out in my own mind. If there is anything I've learned is that there is no such thing as a writer…only a re-writer or editor.

I will end here asking only that people earnestly attempt to contribute how they can. If you are fortunate enough to be able to donate financially, then that is wonderful. If you are unable, perhaps you can pick out one or two posts once in a while and just let the person know, "I read your post. I acknowledge how difficult you have it. Try to remember to be kind and patient with yourself. I too suffer in my own way and am not yet able to offer any wise words, but know that I read your post and I genuinely care." I think often people don't necessarily want an 'answer': they just want to be heard or recognized. I could be wrong.

Let us strike a balance and try to contribute as we can. (BTW, I don't speak for 7 Cups in any way. This is my opinion!)

Be well

@JeffWM I believe compassion and quality are key. When I am treated with compassion and respect here I have no problem with paying. When I leave here and have to go to crisischat then I begin to question.

@mutter3

I understand your fear. If you pay, there is no way anyone could guarantee any type of service or, as you put it, compassion.

When I first hit rock bottom, many years ago, I ended up on a depression chat site. I wasn't thinking properly and believed it was a safe place. It was some of the moderators that ended up making it a disaster. So I, and I'm guessing at least a few others, left. If this type of thing went on across many of their boards, advertisement impressions would go down and some of the services would have to be cut.

The problem there (and many places) is there is a huge disconnect with the people that worry about financial sustainability and I'll call it for lack of a better term, the health of the site. The people that pay the bills are often not the people that actually perform the service; they provide the place, and others (often voluntarily) provide for the health, or as you put it the compassion of the site.

In no way am I insinuating that this is the case here. In reality, I have no idea. I pop on as often as I can, look at & respond to a few of the most recent posts, and I pop off. I have learned that I don't want to be a part of, or know anything about, the politics that may be going on. When this site is called "7 Cups of JeffWM", I guess then I will be concerned.

I have nothing terribly insightful or intelligent to offer beyond that. I hope this comes to a conclusion where no one feels abandoned.

@mutter3 This. So much this. I've ceased participating in this site as a listener and seldom ever bother to log in as a member anymore for that very reason. No way would I pay a monthly donation but for good service... I'd pay for that on a case by case basis. Thank you for your posts on here @mutter3. I've always enjoyed reading your point of view. You're a voice of reality and reason.

@PhoenixKat Thanks you made my day!

In no way do I feel abandoned. When I go to McDonalds I pay and don't have a problem. I get what I'm paying for. If I went to McDonalds and got home with cold food, my burger was wrong and my fries were missing,then I wouldn't pay.

@mutter3

I'm not sure your analogy is 100% correct, but I fully understand your feeling. In my opinion, it is up to each one of us to try and show compassion when we are able. I believe that often, people who are suffering post because they want to be 'heard', recognized, not feel so alone, and to be told they are cared for-- scabbed angel wings and all. I could be very wrong, but I believe many would dry a tear if they only heard that they are cared for right now, as is, with or without any "faults". Would it be nice if someone were able to provide an "answer"? Sure! But we all know that's not feasable.

I am fortunate enough to have been in therapy with people who cared. I pay, they provide a service. If I am unhappy, I can vote with my feet and go elsewhere-- no hard feelings. My therapist knows that sometimes I'm not looking for an 'answer' and just want to 'ground' my feelings in "I'm not crazy for feeling this way am I?"

Yet, I am very fortunate. I believe others may need to hear that what the feelings they have are not abnormal or crazy.

I think that most of us, from time to time, can choose one post and carefully read it and respond saying only, "I care for you. Your suffering would bring anyone pain. Be patient with yourself. Be compassionate with yourself. Remain strong."

I believe that if each of us could do this when we are able, even for one post, it would help build a compassionate society that will bring about a sustainable website.

I could very well be wrong. Once I was wrong, but I thought I was right ;)

Be well